10miles @ HMP-MP pace

Do it at Marathon pace. Build up to that by moving from 4 x 2 miles > 3 x 3 miles > 6 miles straight > 2 x 4 miles > 8 miles straight > 5 x 2 miles > 2 x 5 miles > 10 miles straight.

Just my opinion though. All good workouts that will benefit a runner and lead you to being able to do that workout with confidence.

nah, it isn't crazy hard, but it's a bit too fast to do consistently without overtraining/burnout risk.

i spent a year where every other week i would prescribe 10 miles at M pace. i always ended up running a ~10s faster than M pace because i'm dumb. definitely tires you out. still not crazy hard, though, considering you could run faster for 3 more miles in a race.

shake and rake wrote:

Is 10 miles at a pace between HMP and MP a crazy hard workout?

No

shake and rake wrote:

Is 10 miles at a pace between HMP and MP a crazy hard workout?

Depends on how close your marathon pace is to your actual “marathon potential”. If you’re coming close to maximizing your abilities on marathon race day then this workout would be pretty damn hard. If you’re like most and running 45+ seconds slower than your 5k race pace for a marathon, then probably not that hard.

For example, my half marathon PR pace is 5:24 and my marathon PR pace is 5:32. Halfway between is 5:28. That would be a 54:40 for ten miles. This would be nearing race effort for me unless I was within 5-6 weeks of a goal marathon. How do I know? I have run 10 mile races during marathon buildups. Before my 2:25:17, I ran a 54:09 6 weeks out. Before my 2:27:45, I ran 54:56 8 weeks out. These were all-out efforts.

An good HS coach wrote:

Do it at Marathon pace. Build up to that by moving from 4 x 2 miles > 3 x 3 miles > 6 miles straight > 2 x 4 miles > 8 miles straight > 5 x 2 miles > 2 x 5 miles > 10 miles straight.

Just my opinion though. All good workouts that will benefit a runner and lead you to being able to do that workout with confidence.

Good advice here.

This ^ Actual marathon race pace for a well trained marathoner and marathon race pace for a high school kid who focuses on the mile are two different things entirely.

The high school kid probably does his every day 10 mile runs as fast or faster than he could race a marathon if someone put him on the starting line tomorrow. However, if that kid is say a 4:30 miler and doing 45-50 per week, then he uses the calculator to get a predicted marathon time based on mile time, and he's going to get a workout that is extremely difficult.

Nailed it...

It also depends on what else you’re doing. 10 miles at MP in the middle of a high mileage week that also includes a shorter VO2MAX session and a long run is a very hard run. In a 60 mile week where this is your only session it’s not so bad.

shake and rake wrote:

Is 10 miles at a pace between HMP and MP a crazy hard workout?

Yes.

10miles at MP is already a hard workout when you are training on tired legs.

Fastern than that will do more harm than good.

Impala31 wrote:

shake and rake wrote:

Is 10 miles at a pace between HMP and MP a crazy hard workout?

Yes.

10miles at MP is already a hard workout when you are training on tired legs.

Fastern than that will do more harm than good.

this is probably as complex as we needed to get.

this is the right response. i sometimes run my 10 mile workouts closer to HMP, but other aspects of my week tend to suffer as a result. keep it at MP.

It's not crazy hard. That's a workout you should be able to do frequently.

Kvothe wrote:

It's not crazy hard. That's a workout you should be able to do frequently.

whaat?

Nobody does 16k at 21k pace or 30k pace.

That is way too hard.

Okay then, good luck running 26 @ MP when you max out at 10 @ MP in training

For many runners the difference from half marathon pace to marathon pace is around 20 seconds per mile. But let’s just say even 25 seconds per mile. So you are saying 10 miles in the middle of those paces. When you are by yourself in the middle of training that is a pretty hard work out.

Impala31 wrote:

Kvothe wrote:

It's not crazy hard. That's a workout you should be able to do frequently.

whaat?

Nobody does 16k at 21k pace or 30k pace.

That is way too hard.

Is it? I do one hour at half marathon pace and 50mins faster than half pace as tempos. If youre not doing workouts like these, those last miles of the marathon burn you out. I do my easy runs very easy to be fresh for workouts like these. I probably do one of these tempos, along with other workouts, three weeks out of four.

Hardloper wrote:

Okay then, good luck running 26 @ MP when you max out at 10 @ MP in training

we are talking about faster MP, not MP...

And no need to run 20miles at MP in workouts... You have to take into account that you will be in way better shape on the race day than in the workouts days.

10M at MP is a good workout, quite hard but that you can do like every 2 week. And maxing out at 13 is enough unless you are an elite/subelite Marathoner.

Kvothe wrote:

Impala31 wrote:

whaat?

Nobody does 16k at 21k pace or 30k pace.

That is way too hard.

Is it? I do one hour at half marathon pace and 50mins faster than half pace as tempos. If youre not doing workouts like these, those last miles of the marathon burn you out. I do my easy runs very easy to be fresh for workouts like these. I probably do one of these tempos, along with other workouts, three weeks out of four.

What are your PRs?

Honestly I don't believe it, 50min at faster than HM pace is an all out race, as is 1h a HM pace (unless you are a 2h guy...). 3 times a month is not possible.

Either you lie or you are able to race way faster for HM than your PR.

Kvothe wrote:

Impala31 wrote:

whaat?

Nobody does 16k at 21k pace or 30k pace.

That is way too hard.

Is it? I do one hour at half marathon pace and 50mins faster than half pace as tempos. If youre not doing workouts like these, those last miles of the marathon burn you out. I do my easy runs very easy to be fresh for workouts like these. I probably do one of these tempos, along with other workouts, three weeks out of four.

Maybe this is something that doesn't scale very well at different abilities...For a 1:10 half runner, trying to run 50-60 minutes faster than HM means basically racing a ten miler.

Ya, it's just about racing a ten miler as a workout. Even after a real half marathon race, I'm ready to workout again after 2 easy days. Unfortunately instead of getting faster at them, I just got real good at recovering from them I guess and in a good season I erk a few secs off my pr. Right before I started working full time, in my mid 20s, I even had a year where I was doing long runs the day after half marathons.

I guess if I took another few mins off my half and was running under 105, I'd have to back off the level of effort for my tempos.