Donovan Brazier fastest 4x4 split

You are simply guessing at his speed. Coe ran the 400 in the same territory as Brazier - 45.5 in a relay and 46.87FAT. His 200 time was 21.7. What makes you think Brazier has faster basic speed than Coe (who was also faster over 800)?

Armstronglivs wrote:

JumpsDoctor wrote:

Donovan can probably run around 21.3-21.4 for 200m, potentially faster. This is exactly like when people said that Michael Norman couldn't break 10 seconds in the 100, despite the fact that he ran a 10.27 into a headwind in high school and has one of the most exceptional starts in the world. Sometimes you just have to read between the lines - extrapolate, infer, do whatever - and realize that it's really dumb to equate someone's past performances (especially if it was 4-5 years ago) to their current ability. Brazier is a MF savage who is real quick over 400m.

You are simply guessing at his speed. Coe ran the 400 in the same territory as Brazier - 45.5 in a relay and 46.87FAT. His 200 time was 21.7. What makes you think Brazier has faster basic speed than Coe (who was also faster over 800)?

Donovan is younger, has a faster 600m PR, and ran those 4x4 splits when he was a teenager, whereas Coe was 23ish when he split that 45.5. You are correct of course that I am estimating, but Donovan's body type is more ideal for sprinting than Coe. He is able to achieve similar 800m times (and make no mistake, he will blow Coe's mark out of the water) with a 1500m PR that is roughly 6 seconds slower than Coe's. So yes, Coe was fast, but he was also likely more on the strength side of the spectrum compared to Donovan.

Makes me think it's fair to say Donovan is close to a half second faster than Coe over 200m. Of course, my word is not gospel, but again it's a very similar situation to Michael Norman. It's reasonable to extrapolate from someone's world-class performances in a slightly longer events because there are many cues that suggest abilities in shorter events. I have been saying Norman was a 9.8 man for years, and I don't feel like it's an "I-told-you-so" moment because it wasn't like it was a bold prediction for me to make. It was obvious to any reasonable fan watching him. Same thing goes for Brazier. In my opinion, of course.

Everyone in track with understanding of the sport KNOWS that Brazier has MUCH FASTER basic speed than Coe ever did. It's why Coe was never a World Champion over 800m.

Brazier is not making a USA 4x4 team while training for 800m. Many posters have pointed out that he’s far from the fastest 400 runner of the top 800m men on the circuit (I believe Dixon, korir went in the 43s FAT relay splits in college, Amos has run sub 45 open, and plenty more like Wesley Vasquez appear to be quicker over 400m). The USA 4x4 is the hardest 4x4 to make in the world with multiple 43 second open men and plenty of 43 second relay carries to choose from.

Look at the signs. He has been running more 1500s under Julian. He was a great XC and mile runner in HS. Shorter events tend to peak earlier and his best 400m days are probably behind him. This kid is a true 800m runner; a perfect balance of strength and speed. To speculate that he could make a USA 4x4 is preposterous.

The better question, because of the tactics of global finals, is if he could medal in a world 1500m!

Armstronglivs wrote:

his positivity is good? probably wrote:

Brazier is a top 6 US 400m runner if he focused on the event. You don’t float through an 800 at 49-50 without having 45s 400 capabilities (when peaking and training for 400)

Wilson Kipketer ran 48x en route to one of his 800 records. His best time over the 800 of 1.41.11 is still considerably faster than Brazier's best. Yet his best 400 time was in the same territory of 46.85. A great 2-lap runner does not have to be a great 1 lap exponent - and rarely is.

A fast 400m runner - sub 45 - would necessarily have to be quick over 200m. Juantorena could do 20.7. Is Brazier a sub-21 runner over 200? If he isn't, I can't see him getting below 45s.

Again, I agree with the thrust of your argument, but Kipketer was clearly capable of much better than his open pb of 46.85, which was set in '94 when his 800pb was around 1:43.3.

A week before he ran 1:41.73 in '97, he ran a 45.4 relay leg in the European Cup, so I'd suggest he was capable of at least 46.0 for an open 400m in his best year, probably a bit faster, as I don't expect someone going through 400m in 48.4 (2.4 secs off their 400pb) as being capable of running 1:41.24 if their potential at 400m was only 46.0.

JumpsDoctor wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

You are simply guessing at his speed. Coe ran the 400 in the same territory as Brazier - 45.5 in a relay and 46.87FAT. His 200 time was 21.7. What makes you think Brazier has faster basic speed than Coe (who was also faster over 800)?

Donovan is younger, has a faster 600m PR, and ran those 4x4 splits when he was a teenager, whereas Coe was 23ish when he split that 45.5. You are correct of course that I am estimating, but Donovan's body type is more ideal for sprinting than Coe. He is able to achieve similar 800m times (and make no mistake, he will blow Coe's mark out of the water) with a 1500m PR that is roughly 6 seconds slower than Coe's. So yes, Coe was fast, but he was also likely more on the strength side of the spectrum compared to Donovan.

600m was hardly ever contested as an event when Coe was running, so comparisons over that distance are pointless. His only 600m was on a cinder track in '79, when he ran 76.5.

He went through 600m in c. 1:15.0 during his 800m WR, which is faster than Brazier ran his 600m tonight.

Coe was 22 when he ran his fastest 400 relay of 45.5, and I don't recall Brazier running any faster in the various relays he's run in. And Coe ran a 45.6 from practically a standing start in 81, when 24, ninety mins after solo running a 1:44, which shows sub 46 ability in my opinion.

Brazier is now 23, and his 800pb is still slower (albeit only 0.01secs) than Coe's at the same age.

I think they have very similar 400 ability ( about 45 high in an open 400m), but of course Brazier could yet improve that, as Coe did up to 24.

Brazier should be able to run quicker than Coe, as it is after all 40 years later and Brazier is running on faster tracks and with better spikes. Yet I think stating that he will, 'blow Coe's mark out of the water,' is somewhat ungracious and out of historical context.

I doubt Brazier will smash the world record, even with the technological advances he has (even over Rudisha), by over 1 second as Coe did 40 years ago.

yung dennis wrote:

600yd/600m man wrote:

I would like you to show us an U.S. Olympic 4 x 400m relay team that was not selected directly from U.S.A. 400m final.

Ok. 2012 US Olympic women's 4x4 team. Felix ran a leg in the finals despite not running the 400m at the trials.

I see you're avoiding posting under your registered handle. Evidence that you lack confidence in the gist of your post. I assume D. Brazier will continue to compete as a male. A few years ago, I went through all U.S. Olympic 4 x 400m male relay teams. Through at least early 1960s, top 4 400m final gents, U.S. Olympic Trial. Recent decades, top 6, U.S. Olympic Trial. Brazier is not going to next Olympic or any Olympic as a 400m athlete. Since I posted last, a few posters have compared D. Brazier to A. Juantorena. Said posters are comparing D. Brazier to the wrong 1976 Olympic athlete. Brazier reminds me of Ivo van Damme. Ivo van Damme earned Olympic silver in 1976 in both 800m and 1500m. All African boycott, 1976. 1976 Olympic 1500m final, both John Walker and van Damme raced final 300m sub-38 after both men split 1200m 3:01.xx. If Olympic 1500m were to split 1200m slower than 3:06, Brazier could also earn a 1500m medal. Posters stating D. Brazier has 400m Olympic potential will eventually look foolish. I would like to see Brazier earn Olympic medals in 800m & 1500m. D. Brazier has absolutely no opportunity to earn an Olympic medal as a 400m athlete.

Brazier with his 47.02 400 PR, does not possess "world class 400 speed." It's doubtful he could even make the final at nationals in the event. Very few 800 guys in history could also be competitive at 400. Alberto Juantorena, more than 40 years ago, was the last one. They are very different events. Being good at one does not automatically make you good at the other. It works the other way as well. People on here were salivating at what Jeremy Wariner (43.45 PR) could do over 800 meters until he struggled to beat low-level collegians in a 1:53 race. After that, no one talked up Wariner's 800 potential.

Brazier is much faster than his 400m PR suggest. I can’t come up with all the receipts at the moment, but I’m certain he’s a mid 45 runner if given the opportunity. Furthering that, he’s likely sub 45 if given the proper emphasis and focus on the 4. Remember, he’s never run a fully fresh open or really 400, it’s almost alway on the coattails of another race. Concerning his splits, here are my 2 cents, best indoor relay split = outdoor PB. Donavan has split sub 46 a few times indoor, if you look at the history, that means he’s running sub 46 outdoor.

For those that mentioned that it is impossible to train / improve one's 400 while also training for the 8, a couple notable exceptions:

Juantorena - 44.26 FAT

ran his 400m PR while training for the 800/400 double. (where he emphasized strenght and long aerobic mileage in the base phase, and included short speed specific to the 400 and longer intervals such as kilometers specific to the 800).

Korir - 44.21 FAT

PR'ed in the open 400m 2 years after switching to focus entirely on the 800m exclusively after starting training under Paul Ereng.

https://www.letsrun.com/news/2017/02/emmanuel-korir-freshman-set-worlds-best-600m-think-world-champion-800/

If brazier was a 44 low FAT guy like them, which I think he could be, he could definitely be an asset to the USA 4*4. There are only couple sub 44 guys in the states running right now, and the other high class athletes are either 44 low or mid .

kjl wrote:

Everyone in track with understanding of the sport KNOWS that Brazier has MUCH FASTER basic speed than Coe ever did. It's why Coe was never a World Champion over 800m.

You're joking. 1.41.7 in 1981 on an inferior track to today's. Brazier may never better or even equal that time on a modern track. The 800 isn't just about speed - strength and arerobic power are crucial. The best haven't always been the fastest over 400 or 200.

Juantorena was a 20.7 guy over 200. I would be surprised if Brazier was anywhere near that.

In 2018 Brazier ran an open 400m in 46.91 INDOORS in probably his only effort of the season.

Mark Everett also ran 44.53 and 1:43.50

Angelo Taylor ran on 4x400 in the 2000, 2008, 2012 Olympics without finishing in the top six of the 400m at the trials. Marion Jones also won a gold medal (later stripped) in 2000 without competing in the open 400 at the trials. If the coaching staff thinks Donovan Brazier could help the team win a gold medal then he’s on the team. They will not consult the LRC “experts” and “historians”.

wannabe8boi wrote:

For those that mentioned that it is impossible to train / improve one's 400 while also training for the 8, a couple notable exceptions:

Juantorena - 44.26 FAT

ran his 400m PR while training for the 800/400 double. (where he emphasized strenght and long aerobic mileage in the base phase, and included short speed specific to the 400 and longer intervals such as kilometers specific to the 800).

Korir - 44.21 FAT

PR'ed in the open 400m 2 years after switching to focus entirely on the 800m exclusively after starting training under Paul Ereng.

https://www.letsrun.com/news/2017/02/emmanuel-korir-freshman-set-worlds-best-600m-think-world-champion-800/

If brazier was a 44 low FAT guy like them, which I think he could be, he could definitely be an asset to the USA 4*4. There are only couple sub 44 guys in the states running right now, and the other high class athletes are either 44 low or mid .

Juantorena was a 20.7 runner over 200.

Interesting! Where did you get that stat? Is that out of blocks? I am remember reading Juantorena saying he was a really slow starter, so if that was FAT that would be pretty sick!

Pro Hobby Jogger wrote:

In 2018 Brazier ran an open 400m in 46.91 INDOORS in probably his only effort of the season.

46.91 was only the 49th fastest American indoors that season.

This. Brazier may be capable of 46 but that won't make him a top national 400 runner. The 1500 is his alternative.

wannabe8boi wrote:

Interesting! Where did you get that stat? Is that out of blocks? I am remember reading Juantorena saying he was a really slow starter, so if that was FAT that would be pretty sick!

I got the figure from a track site that published his career stats. I was interested to know what he was capable of over the 200, given his prowess at 400. I doubt that anyone could be in the running over 400 at the top level who couldn't beat 21s over 200. A lot of very good 800 runners never bettered 22sec. I would be surprised if Cram was faster than 23s. Endurance is crucial over 2 laps, as we see with Korir and especially Amos over the last 80m. As fast as they are, they run out of gas.

I don't see how you think Brazier has more of a sprinter or speed build than Coe. Brazier is a rangy 6'2", whereas Coe was a compact 5'9". Brazier is built like Rudisha, with a physique that favours a sustained drive rather than explosive sprint speed. In fact, if Brazier was more a sprinter I would say that he would be a 400m specialist and not a great 2-lap runner. He is a fast and powerful middle distance guy. I would be more interested to see what he was capable over 1500 than the 400.

Michael Norman isn't comparable to Brazier. He is a genuine, if versatile, long sprinter. Like Tommie Smith in the '60's.