Doug Soles calls out NY/FM

trading places>>>> wrote:

How bout this, let Doug coach at FM for 4 years and have Aris coach at GO for 4 years, see what happens.

Actually, it would have to be 6 years to be a meaningful experiment. Or longer. It took Aris a few years to keep learning about how to train 7th and 8th graders optimally.

Trading places, if both coaches switched teams the two teams would still be great. They would adapt, great coaches find a way to build great teams.

Or how about Soles coach in bum-f*ck-nowhere Nevada and see how many of us would know who he is?

And I'm not saying he's not a very good coach, but if we want to talk about inequity, let's take a good look at his situation vs. hundreds of other high school cross country programs across the country based on demographics alone.

dig a little deeper? wrote:

Coach Soles wrote:

Regions # of Titles

New York 12

Heartland 1

Regions # of Titles

Northwest 3

California 3

Midwest 2

Northeast 2

New York 2

South 1

Your analysis is only looks at championship titles. If you look at second and third place finishes for the girls, you see a much greater distribution of teams from across the nation. If I haven't miscounted, only girls teams from Saratoga Springs and Manlius have ever finished in the top three from New York in the history of NXN. If you really want to address the disparity in titles, changing the rules in order to cripple teams nationally that have younger kids won't help you that much. You really just need to somehow get one team -- Manlius -- out of the equation and you'll have achieved your goal.

Bingo!

andicamp wrote:

Coach Soles wrote:

You think I handled this poorly. I think I got exactly what I wanted out of it...the conversation.

Your arguments do nothing to change the fact that the meet should be 9-12 to be a true high school championship. You can try to spin this or that to distract form that fact, but it doesn't change it.

Combining schools still makes no sense, but you can keep listing it if you think it is valid.

IT'S NOT A TRUE HIGH SCHOOL CHAMPIONSHIP!!!!!

IT'S A CLUB CHAMPIONSHIP!!!!!

YOU want it to be a true high school championship so that you will benefit.

But it's not, and it never has been.

dig a little deeper? wrote:

Your analysis is only looks at championship titles. If you look at second and third place finishes for the girls, you see a much greater distribution of teams from across the nation. If I haven't miscounted, only girls teams from Saratoga Springs and Manlius have ever finished in the top three from New York in the history of NXN. If you really want to address the disparity in titles, changing the rules in order to cripple teams nationally that have younger kids won't help you that much. You really just need to somehow get one team -- Manlius -- out of the equation and you'll have achieved your goal.

You are incorrect.

Hilton (NY) won the girls race in 2005, and I believe were also on the podium in 2006.

Soles

Why not spend as much time with your 4000 kids and less time on message boards? Maybe then you could compete with Aris..though I doubt it.

For you to suggest that there was a backroom deal to get NY teams to NXN in the first year or so is ridiculous....makes you look like a jackass...which many would not disagree with....

You ought to hope that the higher ups at Nike ( such as Capriotti or even Mark Parker ) don't read message boards.....you are accusing Nike of dishonesty and back room deals....I was part of the group that organized this event 14 years ago....no event as you describe ever took place...

You are tarnishing your reputation to an extent that it may never recover....why not stop it already?

By the way, every coach I have ever spoken with would gladly trade the occasional 8th grader for a school population of 4000 plus a summer program where you charge $150 per kid...Aris would never charge a fee.

Doug,

I give you credit for posting here openly knowing you will get negative feedback!

I have absolutely no first-hand knowledge of how Nike decided to adhere to State association rules and bypass a 9th-to-12th grade rule ... Rumors aside, it makes sense that Nike would contact some top programs to see their willingness to attend a Nike national championship meet ... If I'm a top program with some leverage to make some "suggestions", why not?

For whatever reason, Nike decided to let 7th and 8th-graders compete from States that allow it ... My point is - after 13 years of allowing 7th and 8th-graders to compete, it would be unfair to take that opportunity away unless some major injustice to the kids was evident.

I would not complain if Nike decided to limit the meet to 9th-to-12th graders at the very beginning ... It's their meet ... Nike is putting up the money ... And that rule at the beginning would parallel Foot Locker, so most people would understand and accept it (me included) ... Nike decided something different.

The top California girls' team in 2004 (Ventura) turned down Nike's invitation to compete at NTN 2004 ... Rumors suggested some Nike people were unhappy with that precedent (turning down an open invitation to an all-expense paid trip to a national meet).

NXNer was correct in the post above ... Keara Sammons (Smoky Hill) did not qualify for Foot Locker in 2003 ... she qualified in 2004 along with Smoky Hill team mate Katelyn Kaltenbach who won Foot Locker in 2003 ... it was team mate Morgan Schultz (on the 2004 Smoky Hill team) that qualified in 2003 ... The 2004 NTN team from Smoky Hill CO had a great top three runners.

Girls NTN 2004 had only team runners, and no individual runners like the current NXN ... Yet the race included 12 girls who actually qualified for Foot Locker.

I'm still the only New Yorker who wants to see NXN contested on a California course (at least once) ... Use the same Mt SAC course as the Invitational ... I'd be curious to see the team results and really curious to see the times of the top runners in races where all the top guys and girls are in the same race.

There was never a time when NXN was to restrict teams to just 9-12.... who ever suggests that is flat out way off base...from the outset the rules were that teams had to adhere to the rules of their own state, and that was it... I know, because I was there from the outset.....including the design and preparation of the Portland Meadows course ( including the " hills " which I personally landscaped.... )!there was no deal with the Kranicks...where donyou folks get that crazy notion?

Texan but not registered name wrote:

Coach Soles,

Thanks for the honesty and conversation and for staying on the high road.

A little too late for that.

Coach Soles wrote:

Early History is 100% spot on. NY has made agreements and they have helped them at the meet. Anyone wonder why Saratoga is the only team (I believe) that gets to use their club name instead of their region name? Part of the agreement.

How does the club name have anything to do with anything? Are you suggesting NXN is unfairly supporting the NY clubs by letting them use a club name? Seems an odd conspiracy, considering there aren't really any advantages to it, and none of the other NY teams seem to be taking advantage of this special accommodation

Coach Soles wrote:

You think I handled this poorly. I think I got exactly what I wanted out of it...the conversation.

Your arguments do nothing to change the fact that the meet should be 9-12 to be a true high school championship. You can try to spin this or that to distract form that fact, but it doesn't change it.

Combining schools still makes no sense, but you can keep listing it if you think it is valid.

I don't think many would argue that 9-12 would be a better idea. But you seem to focus on the fact that some schools have runners who have been training since 7th grade, which just comes across as sour grapes. Your time would be better spent trying to determine how to get younger runners training in CA, rather than preventing an entire state from attempting to benefit its athletes. Or at least go one step at a time and focus on what advantages Davis, UT has over your school.

Ben Curtis wrote:

Texan but not registered name wrote:

Coach Soles,

Thanks for the honesty and conversation and for staying on the high road.

A little too late for that.

C'mon, man. He stayed on the high road! Honesty is hard to come by these days. It's refreshing. If you disagree, be honest and respectful. He made it clear he has respect for F-M and their coaches. Thicken your skin up a little.

Coach Soles wrote:

I’ve often said that Nike made a backroom deal in 2004 to get the New York teams to come, and it looks like that belief is not unfounded. Just the basis that a deal like that exists shows how un-level the playing field has been since the beginning of the event..

FM has had only 3x eighth grades on their team in the last 11 years!

Compared to that you have twice the school size of FM, and have nothing to complain about.

The reality is that you're simply outing yourself as a greedy, self serving coach who doesn't care about anyone but himself.

Coach Soles wrote:

The NXN rules prohibit us from using 7th and 8th graders. They wouldn't book flights for them if we tried to bring them because of said rules.

I thought you said the problem was having a feeder system, not actually competing at the meet. In fact there are rarely any 8th graders who compete at NXN. FM had none this year and they still beat your much larger team easily.

Changing the rules would have no impact on results, but would keep a few talented and hard working young girls from enjoying well deserved trips to the NXN finals.

You're just trying to harass the FM girls and their coach, Bill Aris, for self serving reasons, and you should be ashamed of yourself.

Come on man wrote:

Maybe you can explain the rules that prevent CA teams, but apparently not others, from bringing 8th graders. Isn't that a result of your state association rules? If that is the case, in the interest of a level playing field, should Nike also prohibit out of season contact because so many state associations do?

You're right, man. I'm going to stop having off season contact, the kids will appreciate having a break from me anyway, and this will help to level the playing field with small schools.

Make up your mind wrote:

Coach Soles wrote:

The NXN rules prohibit us from using 7th and 8th graders. They wouldn't book flights for them if we tried to bring them because of said rules.

I thought you said the problem was having a feeder system, not actually competing at the meet. In fact there are rarely any 8th graders who compete at NXN. FM had none this year and they still beat your much larger team easily.

Changing the rules would have no impact on results, but would keep a few talented and hard working young girls from enjoying well deserved trips to the NXN finals.

You're just trying to harass the FM girls and their coach, Bill Aris, for self serving reasons, and you should be ashamed of yourself.

Uh, no he's not. I like FM and I like GO. Amd you are really missing the point. If the suggestion of rule change makes you so mad, relax, you won again, you are the best team and we all know it. And the guy you are ripping for making a valid point even said so too.

Coach: please explain what you meant about mile split being forced to take down a video. Also, do you train middle school kids through your track club, and have any of your athletes used the open enrollment process to join your team? You're making claims about other schools and back room deals but you haven't answered these simple questions about your own program. Why not?

Making "claims" about other schools?

The only claim I saw the guy makes was that it's an advantage for teams that can have 7th and 8th graders training and racing with them. Not a "claim", it's a fact.

Also, it's pretty obvious that it makes the team stronger.

And, even if you have a club in which kids can attend in grade 7 and 8, it's a lot different than having them every day in a school program.

Geez, obviously it helps. Relax, NY is still great, the NY runners are still great, FM is still the best, nobody disputes any of that.