Doug Soles calls out NY/FM

I'm from NY, and I don't really have a problem with what he said.

The dude wants to win and hates losing. It was a great year for his team though you know he wanted more.

Though he has to realize other teams look and wonder the same about his program.

Many have talented athletes, great coaching, culture, etc. What makes GO so much better?

"The salt is real. Doug Soles is not happy about FM training 7th and 8th graders. I wonder if he considers having close to 4k student an unfair advantage against some other schools?"

Right and besides:

Is it fair that Great Oaks girls play soccer in the winter and F-M's play in the fall. As a coach, I'd like the chance to have those athletes to try my sport and in NY because of the schedule we can't.

When was the last time Doug had to alter a workout before NXN because of 2 feet of snow?

Put on your big boy pants and do the best you can do with the hand you're dealt (a pool of 4000 is a good card!) and congratulate the winner when you're done (or at least keep your mouth shut).

Being able to work with athletes for 6 years rather than 4 is undeniably a tremendous advantage for schools in those states. I would argue that, past a certain point, that matters more than the size of the school (if your school is big enough to routinely get you 4-5 decent distance runners per class, you can establish a pretty good program, any more is great for added depth but becomes increasingly less important compared to individual development).

This can also be seen in some other states, where middle school athletes might not be able to race with high schoolers but sometimes the high school coach is also working with the middle school kids, versus some districts that don't allow middle school athletes to train with high school coaches or even aren't willing to pay for middle school coaches and allow a middle school XC program at all. Even further exacerbating this is situations where there are some youth clubs in some areas but not in others, which can make up for the lack of middle school XC in the area.

I didn't watch the video, but I've long been of the opinion that being able to train athletes for 6 years rather than 4 is a tremendous advantage. However, that's not anything that Nike can change, so coaches on the less fortunate side of that situation have to do the best with the situation at hand.

If a school of 2000 has 2 elite endurance athletes walking the halls, then statistics would suggest that a school of 4000 would have 4 elite endurance athletes walking the halls. Elite athletes are not added depth, they are low cards. Especially if you are losing some to soccer.

unfair? wrote:

If a school of 2000 has 2 elite endurance athletes walking the halls, then statistics would suggest that a school of 4000 would have 4 elite endurance athletes walking the halls. Elite athletes are not added depth, they are low cards. Especially if you are losing some to soccer.

Oh, I definitely agree that bigger schools have an advantage. My point was that at some point it becomes LESS of an advantage than does 2 extra years of development. I would argue that the point is probably lower than you seem to be making it out to be.

As other poster said, Soles needs to either congratulate winner or say nothing...at least not on the record.

Actually, I'm confused what his gripe is. He coaches a track club (which he charges kids 150$ to join) that includes junior high runners. They practice all winter and all summer, including an entire racing series.

Most states do not allow athletes to work with HS coaches during off season at all- club or otherwise. All good teams in California have organized practice all summer while many other states forbid it. My local HS started mandatory 4 days/week "conditioning" for XC on June 15th- one week after state track.

SaltMines wrote:

The salt is real. Doug Soles is not happy about FM training 7th and 8th graders. I wonder if he considers having close to 4k student an unfair advantage against some other schools?

How big is FM?

F-M Grades 9–12Enrollment 1,577 - 2,000It's F-M's 6 years v. Great Oaks' twice the size.Also, with the girls its not so much the 6 years as much as getting them at 13 instead of 15. Early teens is a "hot spot" in girls' development athletically.

Sore loser wrote:

How big is FM?

Sore loser wrote:

SaltMines wrote:

The salt is real. Doug Soles is not happy about FM training 7th and 8th graders. I wonder if he considers having close to 4k student an unfair advantage against some other schools?

How big is FM?

About 1050 for their 3 year count. Not much smaller than North Central WA, who is another powerhouse program - but on the guys side, which tends to be much more competitive.

The guy needs to relax his forehead, looks like he's constantly totally stressed.

Bozeman high school has around 2000 students.

His argument would hold more water if FM coached any 8th graders. The middle school team has separate coaches, practices, and meets from Aris' squad, and I don't recall many or any instances of girls being moved up to varsity before high school.

I think you should check the data. they have multiple kids running with the varsity coach prior to 9th grade. This year alone their top three ran during junior high.

white ran track varsity indoor and outdoor track with him in 7th and 8th grade varsity xc in 8th. By 9th grade xc she has trained 5 seasons and 2 full summers with the varsity team.

Walters ran varsity xc in 8th grade. 3 full season and 2 full summers of training by 9th grade.

Ryan ran varsity xc, indoor and outdoor track in 8th grade.

It is all about the program, and the parents and kids buying into your program and culture. There are plenty of huge schools that don't perform like GO. There are also schools that have the "Jr. High" advantage that don't perform like F-M. In VA, we have Blacksburg and Braddock; Blacksburg is a small school, but plays the Jr. high card...Braddock is a large school. Both consistently perform at a high level because they take advantage of their situation...Kudos to their coaches for keeping them at the top. Maybe we should focus on the those schools that have the same advantages as Blacksburg and Braddock and ask why they are not performing at the same level. It is not the advantages; it is the culture. To prove my point, Loudoun County, VA has performed very well recently in Cross Country and the distance track events at the state level. The county does not allowed Jr. High kids on the team, nor are they particularly large schools (3A to 5A schools; 900 to 1600 students). Yet several of their coaches have built solid programs despite the disadvantages of being small and having no Jr. high feeder programs. Again, it is all about the program/culture built by the coaching staff.

Brownsville N.Y. also has an unfair advantage of training girls 6 years? Or dors their student body of 200 girls give them a disadvantage. The great coaches find a win to be successful. No reason to gripe.

I think if you have a school of 4000 kids, and you can't find one of them to break into their Top 5, it's time to start looking inwardly rather than outwardly.

Especially if you have full access to 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th Graders two seasons a year, with open enrollment at the HS (NY coaches are only allowed to talk/work with those athletes that test up)

Especially if the only competing sports in the fall are volleyball, golf, tennis, and field hockey (NY has soccer in the fall (the stream said Brie Oakley played soccer until the past calendar year) and year round club lacrosse)

Especially if you don't have to double peak for States and a Regional to even make it there (NY has to triple peak for States, Feds, Regionals)

Especially if your program is pay to play, and you have the resources to run on courses similar to NXN before going there

I've raced against them in new york when I was in high school, and when they ran well, my first thought wasn't they must have cheated. I just knew I had to get better tio be able to run with them.

His argument was based around FM having more years to train the same athletes. Soles said it takes 3-4 years to get his athletes into top form, but the problem is Aris gets his girls ready in 1 year. He doesn't need the extra time. The same is true on the boys side, but boys usually don't hit full potential until puberty so there will be more improvement in grades 10-12. The availability of middle schoolers just creates a larger pool for Aris to draw from, and that is really the only advantage. Soccer in the winter (for Great Oak) is a MUCH bigger advantage. Most of the good female athletes in NY play soccer in the fall.

I know NY the not only state. Minnesota and Kentucky are a couple I know off hand.

Certainly not the only thing FM has going for it, but it is definitely an advantage.