Doug Soles calls out NY/FM

Look, if your goal is to win NXN, and you think having middle schoolers is THE advantage, then pack your stuff up and head to a state that allows for that. Easy. In 4-5 years you should have a national caliber program...

Almost all of the squads at NXN have some sort of nice advantage...size...demographics...etc. That's just the reality. If it was an overwhelming advantage I think you'd actually see NY do even better than what they have done in the past.

In the state I'm in, middle schoolers are not allowed to compete at the high school level, but most of the top programs have their middle school kids engrained into the program in some shape or form.

Taking a shot at his 19th boys squad was funny to me. 19th in the nation is pretty darn good. Boys and Girls are different. Men and women are different. Especially with regards to coaching. Mindsets are so, so different. Aris is a great coach. He has an advantage. And yes, it is possible that he is a phenomenal girls coach.

Let's see lets run:

Aris boys teams since 2004 have finished 2nd, 3rd, 2nd again, 4th, and won it all in 2014, along with his girls. Scrutinizing his boys team/coaching in any way, along with his girls team record, is more than a bit absurd. Both of his teams have qualified for nxn 11 of the 13 years of the event.

Because his boys team 'merely' qualified for nxn after winning their regional without one of their runners is incredible. Just to get there with a 12 man total team is equally if not more incredible. Any coach who finds fault with his boys team/coaching as compared to his girls team/coaching is out of their mind. Sour grapes period. Grow up and become a better coach to your armies of runners.

Also, Bill Meylan's post a few pages ago is perhaps the most specific, accurate and impartial at addressing the so-called 8th grade 'issue'. A re-read of it is strongly advised. 8th graders haven't had the impact (at least at FM) that has been suggested, and FM's history and results proves it. A potential benefit yes, but not an earthshaking game changer in any of their years since nxn began in 2004.

I think the point keeps getting missed. Most coaches would like to have middle school athletes in their program to prepare and develop for HS level. The 9th-graders in NY have a distinct advantage in that they get to train with their high school coaches as 7th and 8th graders. It is understood that many athletes can't contribute to the HS program as 7th and 8th graders. Of course, all schools have distinct advantages and disadvantages.

First off, I appreciate the great insights. I have definitely learned a lot with this thread.

A couple of corrections on my part:

-Bill Aris is the best HS coach in the country. His results proved that years ago. I apologize to Bill for making statements that in any way took away from his team's success at the meet. That was an error on my part and bad timing to make such statements.

-I wasn't intentionally trying to take a shot at Bill or his boys teams who have been very good over the year. I do wonder why the girls have been unbeatable save for one year, and the boys have had a lot more inconsistency compared to that success. I coach both our boys and our girls teams and both have found pretty consistent success over the past few years, although I do understand that you have to coach them differently to get some of the same results. I was asked the question by Johanna if I thought FM was beatable and I gave my thoughts. I do believe the development of middle schoolers plays the biggest role in this disparity.

-Advantages vs. Rules...Many people are listing our advantages vs. FM's advantages. I think we can all agree that both schools have many advantages in the sport of XC. My argument is about the rules solely at NXN. I would like to see NXN as a 9-12 only meet, and I speak to a lot of coaches who feel the same way. It does not go against State Association rules for NXN to limit their meet to 9-12, just like Footlocker and Penn Relays limit it to those grades currently in their meets. I have a feeling if Nike polled the coaches who have been in attendance at the meet, they would find a vast majority prefer 9-12 over 7-12.

-I've seen a lot of people say MS athletes have made no difference in the results. If it makes no difference then lets make it a 9-12 meet. It shouldn't be changing much if we do.

Keep it rolling Letsrun.

Coach Soles,

There's a legitimate case to be made for excluding 8th graders--not just those on teams, but individuals also. I would support that change. But it is unfortunate that you've raised it in the way you have, which is clearly an attempt to negate what you see as a competitive advantage held by other schools.

Speaking of rules, this is from the central section cif rules:

"NO CONTACT PERIOD---

Immediately following each schools completed season of sport, there will be a two week dead period with no contact between players and coaches of the just completed sports season. Note: The use of outside agencies is not allowed to circumvent the “NO CONTACT PERIOD.”

Aren't you violating this rule by participating as a coach in NXN?

On another note, having been to a ton of USATF events, I think it's ridiculous that CA folks are complaining that their pre-HS runners aren't training. The SoCal club system produces that most overtrained 7th and 8th graders in the country.

We are not in the Central Section, so no those rules do not apply to me. I am allowed to attend NXN.

I haven't made the comment that middle schoolers are under or overtrained in CA. Some areas have clubs, some areas have middle school programs. I can't speak to overtrained middle schoolers in California because that isn't the case in my area, for which I am grateful. I have no doubt if I had 100% access to my middle schoolers it would change our results heavily at NXN on the girls side.

You got to love Letsrun, where 8th grade girls are no doubt justly celebrated for their prepupescent superpowers.

Of course, since most coaches don't have 7th and 8th graders on their teams, they would no doubt prefer rules that benefit them and their teams. It seems a natural response, just not persuasive.

I still don't see why Nike would want to enforce new rules that by your own admission decrease the quality of competition and which would add needless complexity to the qualifying process in regions that allow younger kids on teams.

6-8th grade girls can run pretty darn fast, as evidenced by the ones that ran at NXN this year. A team with a couple fast ones last year made it because of them.

Most coaches do not have access to middle schoolers and would prefer them out of the competition.

Nike, just like with moving their course from a tough mudder course to a legitimate course, has improved the quality of their meet for the teams that attend. Limiting it to 9-12 would continue that evolution to a more balanced championship for all teams in the meet, whether you see that or not.

NYC has many "secondary" schools that encompass middle and HS. However the 6th, 7th, and 8th graders can not race in HS races. These athletes are well prepared when they are 9th graders. Although it certainly is an advantage I wouldn't call it an unfair advantage.

Coach Soles wrote:

6-8th grade girls can run pretty darn fast, as evidenced by the ones that ran at NXN this year. A team with a couple fast ones last year made it because of them.

Most coaches do not have access to middle schoolers and would prefer them out of the competition.

Nike, just like with moving their course from a tough mudder course to a legitimate course, has improved the quality of their meet for the teams that attend. Limiting it to 9-12 would continue that evolution to a more balanced championship for all teams in the meet, whether you see that or not.

Posting under my original Letsrun account name (password had to be re-set).

I agree with Doug Soles' post ... Some 7th and 8th-grade girls can run very fast ... I assume most coaches unable to to run 7th and 8th-graders prefer them excluded ... and leaving Portland Meadows improved the quality of NXN ... I really disliked Portland Meadows in December as a site for a championship race.

NXN was initially called NTN (Nike Team Nationals) ... Interestingly, before its inception, 8th-grade girls from New York State had already participated in National "High School" championship races in track as both individuals and relay team members (e.g. the Saratoga girls, Nicole Blood, Hannah Davidson, Caitlin Lane) ... So middle-school participation in national varsity events was already established.

The DyeStat Archives was very helpful in retrieving original information concerning NTN 2004 ... articles such as Nike press release, eligibility updating and general information ... Internet links are posted below.

In Nike's original press release, Nike called the event "a new national high school team cross-country meet ... Teams will compete as USATF-affiliated clubs" ..... so NTN was directly associated with "high school".

An Eligibility article by Rich Gonzalez in Aug 2004 describes Nike's intent to operate " within existing state association guidelines." ... Some quotes from the article:

(1) "teams will be directed to adhere to all guidelines contained within their respective states' particular interscholastic rules"

(2) "making sure teams adhere to their own unique state guidelines"

(3) "the premise of adherence to each of their own state rules"

(4) "Each state has its own unique rules in place"

Nike created NTN as a vehicle to allow the top varsity high school teams in the country to compete head-to-head (and possibly to market the Nike label a bit:)) ... Varsity high school teams from NY can include 7th and 8th-graders ... Nike knew exactly what they were doing as indicated by the quote "Each state has its own unique rules in place".

Bill Meylan

TullyRunners.com

Eligibility Link:

Press Release Link:

General Info Link:

Updated general info Link for NTN 2004:

http://archive.dyestat.com/3us/4xc/NTN/index.htm

Coach Soles wrote:

6-8th grade girls can run pretty darn fast, as evidenced by the ones that ran at NXN this year. A team with a couple fast ones last year made it because of them.

Most coaches do not have access to middle schoolers and would prefer them out of the competition.

Nike, just like with moving their course from a tough mudder course to a legitimate course, has improved the quality of their meet for the teams that attend. Limiting it to 9-12 would continue that evolution to a more balanced championship for all teams in the meet, whether you see that or not.

I will confess to having some bias here towards including the younger athletes. Growing up, I attended a small New England regional high school that included 7th and 8th grade. All told, including junior high, we had maybe 900 kids total enrollment, if that.

The state allowed talented junior high kids to "play up" if their ability allowed. That state rule helped our school to have enough kids for both varsity and junior varsity teams, and to compete fairly successfully not only in our own conference, but also sometimes at the state level. Never, admittedly, did the team perform at the level where the team would get an invitation to run at the NXN Regionals, but results were respectable. It never seemed a big deal to anyone that younger kids were sometimes on a team.

And now I live in Florida, where the state does allow younger runners to compete on varsity teams, but most middle schools don't field running programs at all. As a consequence, you mostly see private schools that have students from elementary through high school taking advantage of the ruling. For example, take a quick look at how many kids in the Florida state finals for the 1A class (for small schools) are 8th grade or lower:

Oak Hall, the winning team, had two 8th graders in their top 5. Circle Christian, the second place team, also had two. Maclay School, in third place, had a 6th and a 7th grader. And so on. I haven't studied the issue, but I suspect this situation isn't all that rare around the country. This is how their teams are constructed.

So, my question is, how would you actually have Nike handle schools like this? Could they qualify for NXN regionals using their full team, but only actually compete using 9th through 12th graders? Or would you have Nike just eliminate from consideration all teams fielding 7th and 8th graders in regular season meets as ineligible to compete at NXN events?

You talk about the "evolution" of the event and the sport, but how would the rule change help running programs in Florida or other states that allow younger kids to comete? How would it help Nike reach more people or make more fans of running?

Again, I see your proposed rule change as advantageous for big schools that don't have attached 7th and 8th grade junior high schools, but you take a constrained view of what constitutes a "team" for many kids across the country. You're asking Nike to tell those kids and their teams that they really aren't welcome at NXN.

Several minor details left out of published accounts of the beginnings of NTN:

From the 1990s through 2002, the Saratoga girls were more often than not the National Champions per The Harrier. The program was built upon a feeder system with the Kranicks coaching high school and younger girls.

In 2003, Saratoga was again National Champions per The Harrier. The top 7 included a frosh, three sophs, two juniors and a senior. Argyle placed second at the NY Feds meet and was ranked 9th nationally per The Harrier. The Argyle team included five 8th graders (#1-4, 6) and a frosh and a soph.

When the notion of a national high school team championship began to be discussed, Nike staff quickly discovered that New York teams would only be involved if 7th and 8th graders were eligible to compete. Given that the best girls team in the country for the past decade would be excluded, Nike shifted from a 9-12 grade championship to a based-on-states'-eligibility rules event.

BTW, when the Saratoga girls won the first NTN championship in 2004, two of their first four had transferred from Argyle and were now 9th graders.

Another detail, which may have come out of the agreement between Nike and the NY coaches, was that the course at Portland Meadows was laid out and overseen by a NY coach for a number of years.

rojo wrote:

That chart is a bit scary. Thank goodness, I didn't coach HS women. It would be so hard to get many of them to accept they are at their peak in 8th -10th grade.

FM totals per year wrote:

You obviously didn't look at the chart.

The Rocket. wrote:

You obviously don't understand the chart. Rojo was spot on.

If you have that many kids year in and year out from the grades 8-10 that means that all those kids 2 years later should presumably be on varsity if they continue to improve. Also one would expect the occasional non-varsity runner as a sophomore to become varsity by their senior year.

Yeah I sure don't understand that 5 out of 7 being in 11th or 12th grade, and only one being in 8th or 9th with 3/4 of those being in 9th, means that girls aren't progressing. Perhaps you dummies can explain how you got so ignorant, but I don't really want to know.

Hank M wrote:

Taking a shot at his 19th boys squad was funny to me. 19th in the nation is pretty darn good. Boys and Girls are different. Men and women are different. Especially with regards to coaching. Mindsets are so, so different. Aris is a great coach. He has an advantage. And yes, it is possible that he is a phenomenal girls coach.

The FM boys won a couple of times, and the girls were non existent. Fortunately he started working with the girls as well, and perhaps now they get more of the focus. However 19th in the country is still very good. Maybe other teams have just caught up with the boys, but not with the girls.

Southern Section Alumn wrote:

might be rojo wrote:

Maybe Cali coaches should get off their asses and start motivating their middle school XC coaches to do a better job. Until they start coaching better they'll continue to be stomped by FM.

Yeah, so that might be a little hard given that most Junior High (we don't typically say middle school over here) coaches don't exist. Cross Country is almost completely thorough clubs up until 9th grade. Also, we don't say "Cali"

Well I live in Cali, and I say Cali, so what's your point? In that case get the club coaches to shape up if you wanna be competitive.

I agree with the NXN current position, which leaves this decision up to the states.

However, the bigger issue is the difference in school size, and therefore of squads. Here the large schools have a huge advantage. It would be difficult to limit NxN to schools of less than 2000 students, so here's an alternate solution.

1) Keep the rules the same as now, for all schools with less than 3000 students.

2) Require that schools with 3000 or more students have only high school students from 9th through 12th grades on their squads at NxN competitions.

Changing times wrote:

The FM boys won a couple of times, and the girls were non existent. Fortunately he started working with the girls as well, and perhaps now they get more of the focus. However 19th in the country is still very good. Maybe other teams have just caught up with the boys, but not with the girls.

Actually... by the time FM's boys won NXN, their girls had already won 8 times.