Doug Soles calls out NY/FM

Feeder programs could be one of the biggest assets a high school team could gain. This is proven less from an individual standpoint and more from the team standpoint. This is seen in almost any sport. Baseball the same kids who played little league, All-Stars, AAU together come together to be state champs.

Within my own state, I have seen a school of 400 win the entire region (multiple states). No coincidence this is soon after a middle school program was built.

You show up to Junior Olympic XC. The teams with the most kids are consistently successful at the high school level.

Yes, money has a lot to do with it. Being able to fund and support programs from such a young age is extremely valuable.

We know that there is no magic in the programs or workouts. It's the consistent and long-term effect of training.

Bill Meylan wrote:

I do not want States that forbid 7th and 8th-grade participation to enforce their restrictive rules on the "progressive" States at NXN ... California has decided to restrict 7th and 8th-grade participation within their States, and that's their problem ... NXN has been consistent thus far ... Let's hope they maintain it.

Bill Meylan

TullyRunners.com

Thank you for posting your excellent summary.

I agree with you 100%.

Long Term Consideration wrote:

I completely agree. The giant elephant in the room is the progress (or lack of it) made by these athletes after their HS running. I had a conversation with a GO soph girl last year (Her aunt is a friend of mine) and asked about her weekly training. It was incredible. The overall volume coupled with the volume of intense work startled me, even though i had a feeling they did a lot. The crazy thing was that this athlete was only a 12min 3200m runner, and not one of their stars.

bingo!

Long Term Consideration wrote:

I completely agree. The giant elephant in the room is the progress (or lack of it) made by these athletes after their HS running. I had a conversation with a GO soph girl last year (Her aunt is a friend of mine) and asked about her weekly training. It was incredible. The overall volume coupled with the volume of intense work startled me, even though i had a feeling they did a lot. The crazy thing was that this athlete was only a 12min 3200m runner, and not one of their stars.

Aris runs a high-mileage, intense (relative to other high schools) program. As many others have said, if you take a high school girl running ~50-70mpw with a large focus on aerobic development and place her in the typical college program that focuses on maximizing quality mileage while minimizing injury (not faulting, just has been my observation that collegiate women's programs inevitably back off mileage and focus on injury prevention), she's going to struggle. Also consider that the FM program is immersive. Aris has consistently attributed their success to the focus he places on coaching the mental side of running. The rug is pulled out from under his athletes the day they step on campus and realize college running is more of a job, less of a passion (again not faulting, just the reality).

The myth of guys under performing in college has largely been debunked. With the exception of Nick Ryan, what I'd consider their talented runners have all pr'd significantly in college. Their ceiling is limited compared to less developed hs athletes so people bash them if they don't become all-americans.

What typical college program tries to minimize injury?

Bill Meylan wrote:

...

The Fayetteville-Manlius girls had only 20 girls on their varsity squad this season ... None of those 20 were 7th or 8th-graders ... I looked, but found no occurrence of any 7th or 8th-grader being part of the varsity this season.

...

Bill Meylan

TullyRunners.com

That's nice, but everyone of their top 7 girls trained with the varsity team as 8th graders at the very latest. That's the major point here, with a more minor point being whether they ran at NXN as 8th graders.

Not allowing 7th-8th graders to run at NXN would change very little considering it takes most of them a few years until they can make a big impact, by which time they are in high school.

No state is going to change their rules because a couple coaches in a separate state are upset that the playing field isn't quite level.

might be rojo wrote:

Maybe Cali coaches should get off their asses and start motivating their middle school XC coaches to do a better job. Until they start coaching better they'll continue to be stomped by FM.

Yeah, so that might be a little hard given that most Junior High (we don't typically say middle school over here) coaches don't exist. Cross Country is almost completely thorough clubs up until 9th grade. Also, we don't say "Cali"

Southern Section Alumn wrote:

might be rojo wrote:

Maybe Cali coaches should get off their asses and start motivating their middle school XC coaches to do a better job. Until they start coaching better they'll continue to be stomped by FM.

Yeah, so that might be a little hard given that most Junior High (we don't typically say middle school over here) coaches don't exist. Cross Country is almost completely thorough clubs up until 9th grade. Also, we don't say "Cali"

Well if your club system isn't producing the results you want and you can't muster up middle school coaches then we should probably tell New York they should stop doing what they are doing because it seems to be working better.

I only have first hand knowledge of one college program. It's the University of Minnesota and the current women's coach Sarah Hopkins clearly tries to minimize injury. Freshman all come in runnng at or below previous mileage. Progression is very gradual. Good program too.

What's most disturbing to me is that you're an educator and the example you are setting for your athletes is simply a bad one. Instead of congratulating FM and then going off to appeal to Nike, you take to interviews and trash the opposition. How about losing (I hardly think finishing 3rd is "losing", BTW) graciously? How about you handle the issue not only with Nike but with Bill Aris directly instead of taking shots in interviews, on Twitter and here? Tell him directly that you think what he is doing is unfair.

There was plenty of opportunity for you to do that at NXN I would imagine.

Must really have stuck in your craw that Aris got the new "coach of the year" award.

You've been whining about this for years now. it's time to take a stand. If you're so firm in your beliefs that this situation is unfair, why do you even go to the meet?

BTW, how fair is it that you don't have to run a regional and teams in every other state do? No advantage there?

This post is really stupid, even considering the low standards here at LetsTroll. Let's take a look at your assholian suggestions and allegations:

1. "Handle the issue with Bill Aris directly." How dumb. Soles states that Aris gains an unfair advantage from the situation; what possible motivation would Aris have to change a thing? If Soles wants to level the playing field, only a rule change will have that effect.

2. No one in their right mind could be resentful or question Bill Aris as the first recipient of the Girls Coach of the Year. Even someone who wants to beat him as badly as Soles would never argue with that award.

3. You suggest Soles wouldn't attend NXN because he finds it unfair. It's the only game in town, dummy. He wants to affect a rule change that will enable his team to compete better against FM. Whether or not this change happens, there's no alternative to NXN, so your suggestion is nonsensical.

4. Great Oak couldn't possibly run a regional race; the California State Meet is the weekend before NXN.

Try harder next time. And no, for the inevitable accusations; I'm not Doug Soles or in any way associated with Great Oak.

Has it occurred to any of you "develop them for college" Einsteins that Aris just a flat-out BETTER COACH than 99% of the college stopwatch holders out there? I've seen many of these "D-1 Geniuses" in action, and I wouldn't entrust them to coach my pet hamster to get to his water bottle.

Also, from Aris:

“You can’t underestimate the fact that people are just tough from Upstate New York,” he said. “Especially, the high school girls.... It’s definitely a common thread of toughness. That weather storm (we’re having right now) could have hit 10 days earlier and I guarantee you they’re out running in it and wouldn’t bat an eye.”

Somehow I have a feeling that Coach Soles' little princesses don't have quite the same level of "Sisu" that the NY girls have. Toughen up, Tinkerbelle!

Good point, in my experience, most college coaches are inept, they truly suck.

Can someone answer either of these for me?

1) Why should we ban junior high programs or ban high school coaches from working with middle schoolers?

2) Why should the high school national cross country championship include participants that aren't in high school?

Thanks all

old man vinter wrote:

Can someone answer either of these for me?

1) Why should we ban junior high programs or ban high school coaches from working with middle schoolers?

2) Why should the high school national cross country championship include participants that aren't in high school?

Thanks all

1. We shouldn't. Somehow in California and other states there is this idea that Middle School's don't exist or sports anyway. While where I'm from in Michigan we don't quite have the ability to run 7th/8th like NY and Minnesota do we can still have a lot of input into our MS teams training and if we want to coach them.

2. This is trickier. It's not really about what should happen and more about what has to happen for the house of cards that is NXN to exist. To be brief for them to somewhat call it a HS National Title they have to allow teams to be the same teams that competed in their HS State tournaments. In other ways they have to back of it being official and use the club names etc... In any case, they need to follow the states rules and that helps them stay under the radar because in a lot of cases if they pushed their own rules just a little more the states wouldn't allow them to come like Michigan doesn't.

It's not a high school championship. It's a club championship.

Go look at the NXN website. Nowhere do they call it a high school championship. This is not an oversight. It's intentional.

No club xc champs are this weekend. I don't see Zap fitness being allowed in NXN.

FM totals per year wrote:

rojo wrote:

That chart is a bit scary. Thank goodness, I didn't coach HS women. It would be so hard to get many of them to accept they are at their peak in 8th -10th grade.

You obviously didn't look at the chart.

You obviously don't understand the chart. Rojo was spot on.

If you have that many kids year in and year out from the grades 8-10 that means that all those kids 2 years later should presumably be on varsity if they continue to improve. Also one would expect the occasional non-varsity runner as a sophomore to become varsity by their senior year.

But as you read the chart you will notice that many varsity runners (capable of being on a winning NXN team) are no longer on the varsity team two years later as evidenced by the chart.

This implies that several athletes (not all but several) are reaching their peak in grades 8-10.

Great Oak's numbers line up a little more with a team that continues to progress into years 3 and 4, but still is nowhere near a boys team which are almost always composed of juniors and seniors.

Being able to work with athletes for 6 years rather than 4 is undeniably a tremendous advantage for schools in those states

Read more:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=7919542#ixzz4SB38I2op

To this I would ask if they have modified cross-country?

We have 7th and 8th graders on theor own team but we keep;it as one whole program.

They race 1.5 miles and train with their own coach but we consult on kids who are promising.

I work with them and they look forward to moving up.

Many athletes who are selectively classified peak early from the extra workload in the younger grades.