Doug Soles calls out NY/FM

mr... obvious wrote:

It does in no way take away what an amazing program F-M is and how great their coaching staff has been but I don't know how anyone can not see the extreme inequity here?

Hopefully not all high school coaches in California are this pitiful.

He seems unhappy that the NY coach's have access to coaching girls in middle school (none were on their teams at NXN, but there were 9th graders).

That said, he has established his own access to middle school kids via his track club

http://www.southtemeculatrackclub.com/

and if you do a simple look at results you will see that when Devin Ito (his 9th grade girl on this year's NXN squad) was in 8th grade she ran a 5:08 1500 (Corona Winter Qualifier meet 1/23/16) under HIS coaching by the club he charges each athlete money to be a part of. So I think that he actually is coaching his runners in middle school, just not in an "official" capacity as a high school coach. On that same club website he provides a link to an article in US Today about large teams success and in the margin of the article it states that he had 150 kids in 2008....FM has 25.....

devin ito did NOT run for doug as an 8th grader. she ran for the equalizers, a club situated in orange county, throughout her age-group career. she has always been an extremely hard worker; that said, she has made tremendous progress while at great oak...

I think the difference that Coach Soles is pointing out is that FM has the 7th and 8th graders training with FM team full time. The Temecula Track Club is a different arrangement I think, so it's not apples/oranges.

I do agree with Soles that having 9th graders enter the program with a full year or two of high-school level training (and FM does HIGH mileage) is a huge advantage. But it should even out by 10th or 11th grade, and there should a fairly level playing field at that point.

BTW, I think Soles is obsessed with beating FM, and it's driving him crazy that he hasn't "cracked the code".

My take? I seriously doubt anyone's going to beat FM, no matter what the rules are.

... it might be best for the coach not to say anything other than congratulations to the winners.

in looking at that "club" website it looks like those middle school kids get some serious training in too for him Monday through Friday with Saturday listed as "long run on your own" or something to that effect. The practices are 2 hours it looks so I would guess there is a good chance for higher mileage also and do you know for a fact that those middle schoolers at FM do high mileage like you state or is that your assumption? There's not even apples to oranges in NY. In some sections of the state high school kids can be on 2 sports (e.g. tennis and spring track) so those teams have advantages in scoring. Not all sections are equal. Some sections don't even allow for events to take place (e.g. pole vault).

I have read that 8th graders train with FM, and if they're good enough to make the varsity 7 they will compete. This, obviously isn't allowed in CA (or most other states). So it is an advantage.

However, in reading more about FM and Bill Aris, I'm feeling like maybe his "secret" isn't about 8th graders or high milage after all, but in the psychological approach.

This article has a pretty fascinating quote: "“I spend 80 percent of my time on psychological and emotional considerations of each kid,” Aris said. “I put 20 percent of my time in designing the training,” he said. “I spend most of my time thinking about and trying to get to the heart and soul of each kid, to both inspire them and to understand them. I’m always tying to figure out what keys unlock what doors to get them to maximize their position.”

http://highschoolsports.syracuse.com/news/article/4542182549305228511/the-secret-to-f-m-cross-countrys-success-there-is-no-secret/

Maybe he's just a better coach than everyone else. I don't know.

I do think that at NXN you shouldn't have 8th graders competing, no matter what the state allows - let's even the playing fields on that item at least. Will be interesting to watch FM and Great Oak next Dec no matter what happens.

As a women's running coach (open level) Here is my take:

1) coaching boys is 70-80% getting the psychology right; coaching success with women is 80-90% getting the "buy in" psychologically. A lot of it is intangible, but having confidence (in your abilities as well as theirs), direction, keeping it fun overall and letting the best competitor in each individual come out are key. Aris knows how to do this, clearly. I'm not sure Soles is there yet. Maybe he is at 60-70%, hard to say.

2) I think coach Soles saw this season as his best shot at FM for a while. He didn't sound super confident about even making NXN next year as a team. So there is probably that personal frustration behind his comments, which were not entirely unreasonable regardless. In any case it "is what it is" and he has to just look at it as a learning experience. At his age I think Aris just was starting to win at this level.

another coach wrote:

What about the extreme inequity of Great Oak's 3600 student body? Or the extreme inequity of coaching in a climate where year around training is easier? Or the extreme inequity of coaching in a district with open enrollment? Or what about the extreme inequity of coaching in Bozeman, a school of 1800 students in a small city, competing against the likes of Great Oak, located in the largest metro area in the country?

I can't say I'm even a fan of FM, but tired of the endless excuses, often coming from CA. First it was the course at Portland Meadows, now it's the middle school runners in NY, what's next?

Finally, XC should reward strength runners. It's not a track meet. And there are plenty of programs around the country that have run well in Portland that don't have experience on similar courses. Man up.

Huh?

There are literally dozens of other high schools within an hour of Great Oak with 3600+ enrollment and the same weather and open enrollment. Those aren't unique things in southern California.

OK, this is just sour grapes, time to shut up.

If you want equity you would need separate divisions based on school size as well. How can a school the size of Bozeman compete with a school the size of Great Oak? Oh, wait.

But seriously, this is big country, some schools have perfect training environments, some have huge enrollments, some have 7th and 8th graders, some have great coaches.

Deal with it, Great Oak is not entitled to anything, as much as some might think, just shut up and coach. Give the kids a good experience, create a love for the sport and a healthy environment.

I love how we all think that now 8th graders are an advantage. Ha! That there alone shows that it is not coaching. 8th graders running fast (and 9th 10th) shows raw talent, not coaching.

When the first NXN team is comprised of all Seniors, then I will bestow a great coaching title.

No, that 8th grader wouldn't have the same opportunity later in their career - they'd have 4 other opportunities, just as everyone else in the country would. How is that unfair?

I'm not saying that Nike would/should define how states regulate their sports. They would set a rule for their own national/regional meet series, just as they do now. New York wouldn't have to follow suit for their state meet activities. It just makes sense to me that NXN would try to conform with what the majority of states do. It's not something that I lose sleep over, but that's what would be most intuitive - only allow high school runners in a high school championship.

individual development ?????

is completely plateauing and never getting better past highschool individual development ???

i contend it is not , instead it hurts their future prospects and has limited their potential in college ,

years of great teams and no one going on to have similar success tells us development has STOPPED!!!

what is best for the athlete ?

that is what matters !!!

more please wrote:

individual development ?????

is completely plateauing and never getting better past highschool individual development ???

i contend it is not , instead it hurts their future prospects and has limited their potential in college ,

years of great teams and no one going on to have similar success tells us development has STOPPED!!!

what is best for the athlete ?

that is what matters !!!

So which school has the most NCAA All-Americans and has never had a State Qualifier? Is that what you would prefer? Undertrained athletes that have a huge upside that no one knows about?

Interested Onlooker wrote:

http://highschoolsports.syracuse.com/news/article/4542182549305228511/the-secret-to-f-m-cross-countrys-success-there-is-no-secret/

Looks to me like the headline writer has read Once a runner.

Just some quick info and numbers for the few who might be interested.

I was curious how many 7th and 8th-grade girls actually compete at the varsity level in cross country in NY, so I checked the NYSPHSAA sectional championship for 2016 ... 2990 girls ran ... 124 were 8th-graders ... 20 were 7th-graders ... 95.2% (9th-12th), 4.8% (7th-8th).

Confirms what most NY coaches already knew ... The vast majority of junior high runners in NY (7th and 8th-grade) do not compete at the varsity level ... Most compete on junior high teams that have different coaches and different practices than the varsity ... Some leagues, especially leagues with larger teams, actually prohibit junior high and varsity teams from practicing together.

The Fayetteville-Manlius girls had only 20 girls on their varsity squad this season ... None of those 20 were 7th or 8th-graders ... I looked, but found no occurrence of any 7th or 8th-grader being part of the varsity this season.

The Fayetteville-Manlius junior high girls' team came to the Tully Invitational this fall ... They have only 19 girls ... Bill Aris is not the coach of the junior high team (I did not see him at our invitational, and Tully is only 20 miles from FM) ... They do not practice with the varsity.

One noticeable difference between the results of the FM varsity and junior high teams ... the FM varsity hammered everybody from dual meets through NXN Nationals ... the FM junior high did not.

Over the years, the only junior high girls I have seen on the FM varsity are those girls capable of running at that level ... you see their names in the results ... there is no large pool of junior high girls being secretly coached by Bill Aris behind the scenes.

What Fayetteville-Manlius has accomplished over the years with the number of girls in their program borders on the incredible ... But we in NY are now use to it.

Enrollment numbers put Fayetteville-Manlius at 354 students per class in the high school (both boys & girls) ... In the California Southern Section, that would put Fayetteville-Manlius in Division 4 ... IF including FM's middle school in sports enrollment (7th and 8th-grade), Fayetteville-Manlius would be a small in Division 2 team in California (could not compete against Great Oak at States).

Concerning Junior High Participation at the Varsity Level ... Junior high kids have been allowed to compete varsity in New York State since the 1970s ... Starting in 2011 and continuing for three years, NYSED (the New York State Education Department) reviewed and evaluated 7th and 8th-grader participation against older students ... Rumors had some officials in NYSED as opposed to any 7th and 8th-grader participation at the varsity level ... In 2015, NYSED concluded:

"... the shared belief of the NYSAAA, the NYSPHSAA, medical directors, directors of physical education/athletics, and the NYSED that physical education and interscholastic athletic competition are important to the development of the whole child, and that students benefit when they can participate in such activities at a pace that is consistent with their physical and emotional maturity, size, fitness level, and athletic skill."

Seems that some opposed to any 7th and 8th-grader participation at the varsity level were convinced by its success in NY ... I have personally witnessed its successes ... It may not be perfect in a few instances, but it is working just fine overall ... I question why more States are not doing it.

One California coach told me, "You can NOT have 7th and 8th-graders running varsity in California. It would be a logistical nightmare for me and huge advantage for other schools" .... BINGO ... You might need some new rules .. Reminds me of one of my favorite quotes heard from an old-time coach years ago ... "Rules made by adults to protect the jealously of other adults" ... Somebody gets an advantage and somebody loses.

I realize that 7th and 8th-grade participation is an advantage at NXN for New York, Minnesota and the other States sensible enough to allow it ... But as yet, it has not determined any winning outcome ... Doug Soles is correct in noting that the North Rockland girls would not have gotten to NXN in 2015 without their 8th-graders ... But their varsity team certainly deserved to be at NXN based on their ability.

I do not want States that forbid 7th and 8th-grade participation to enforce their restrictive rules on the "progressive" States at NXN ... California has decided to restrict 7th and 8th-grade participation within their States, and that's their problem ... NXN has been consistent thus far ... Let's hope they maintain it.

Bill Meylan

TullyRunners.com

you say .....

So which school has the most NCAA All-Americans and has never had a State Qualifier? Is that what you would prefer? Undertrained athletes that have a huge upside that no one knows about?

Neither of your bookends !!!!

but individual development is more than a highschool value , its a journey that should not be ended for an athlete by overzealous coaching !

the appropriate and correct answer is.... Properly trained athletes.... that still have an upside.... that are on a path to reach their best long after high school !

lets say his athletes are at the level of success they are having today , (which is great ) and then go on and have a similar success past high school then this would arguement would be irrelevant , but VERY FEW of his athletes have even close to the similar level of success they have in highschool and perform across the board far below the level that their high school times and marks would suggest thy would be capable of . therefore if we have seen year after year athletes underperforming after him regardless of what program they run for after high school then its clear individual development is stifled by his program , which is not good for athletes or a longterm definition of success .

DO WHATS BEST FOR THE ATHLETE ,..... NOT JUST WHATS BEST FOR THE COACH !!!!!

Sensible? It seems that the sensible thing is to allow 7th-8th grade cross country participation against other 7th-8th graders, and allow high schoolers to race against other high schoolers.

Fayetteville-Manlius school district has never produced a NCAA champion! Oh the HUMANITY! The TRAGEDY!!! Bodies strewn along he roadside to greatness!

You idiots need to get a ****ing life.