None of us know these athletes on a personal level, and even if we did, people hide things from those closest to them all the time. So I find it rather pointless to speculate on Kipchoge's mental state and what he would/would not be willing to do to be the best.
I freely admit to being kind of a hater, but for me it becomes a Lance Armstrong type situation. Which is to say that you typically don't wipe the floor with fields full of dopers by not cheating yourself. I look at Bolt the same way. A massive percentage of sub 9.90s were done by guys who later got busted, and we're supposed to believe one magic guy just destroyed all of them by not doing the same? Obviously unless concrete evidence comes out you can't punish him for it and Kipchoge deserves all the accolades he gets, but I think a lot of people are being naive.
Three superstars, one with suspicious blood values several times throughout her career, one from Athletics West with God knows how many doping teammates, and one with a world record at age 37, basically unbeatable since several years, and with two doping teammates. Each one of them beating all the best talented dopers...
Of course they are special, but I'd be shocked if these three were clean.
There is only one reason a person breaks a world record in a sport filled with doping problems. Is it because he is clean? In a sport that is filled to the brim with PEDs how can the best of the best be clean. I think people are blind/stupid when it comes to this question. Kipchoge is a wonderful athlete but it really is just to good to be true? Sub 2HRS for 26.2 miles-just not buying whats being sold here. I think runners just have no ideal what a WR is really all about. I really can't believe people still fall for this. How many examples do we need to see to finally grasp what is really going on in the elite marathoning world.
7. Due to said partnership with Nike and all the money they are making from super shoes, there is a vested interest in helping him avoid a negative drug test. And unlike the situation with Lance Armstrong, there is no whistleblower in Kenya who wants to bring down their national hero.
Addressing your points:
7. You are basically saying that there is a huge conspiracy within Nike of covering up doping within their athletes. So you think all Nike athletes are dopers? There is not one shred of evidence to suggest that. Nike is however by far the biggest shoe company in the world. Naturally people will try to drag it’s name down into the mud.
malmo wrote:
The are conspiracy theories and there is reality.
Back to reality. When Drenth died, while no one would say so publicly, the talk on the street was "was he or wasn't he?" Whether Drenth was or wasn't I don't know and I don't care. He died too early and that's a shame.
As far as speculation goes, was it coincidental that two months after Drenth's death AW abruptly and without warning closed down shop? Could be. Is it coincidence that over 7 years of "sports science data" was collected with National and World-Class athletes as the subjects had disappeared? Could be. Hard to believe this treasure trove of scientific data was collected, yet nary a paper was written, no data was shared, and nothing was put out for peer review? Hmmmm. That, my Portlandrunner friend, is a valid speculation.
Have you ever read "Swoosh"? No one has ever challenged the veracity of Ms. Strasser, have they? Do you find it just coincidental that none of the inside players (Dick Brown, Doug Brown, Jeff Johnson, Harry Johnson, Bob Sevene and others) ever talk openly about AW? When they do talk they are very careful about what they say, aren't they? What could have been the template for club support in this country is little more than an asterisk and whispers.
Elite performers are by definition outliers. Their performances, by definition, are unlike any that have ever occurred before. You can't just use others runners performance career trajectory to predict elite performers performance. Elite performances are uniquely special.
Good points. Of course in this case, Kipchoge is not an “ordinary” outlier; he’s a quadruple outlier. He’s an outlier in his consistency, his longevity, his marathon times, and the age at which he’s breaking records (important correction: Geb was 35 when he broke the marathon WR, not 36). Statistically speaking, what are the odds that someone can be a quadruple outlier distance runner while having lots of opportunities to dope in a country with a clear doping problem, who has associates who’ve been busted, who has shown he’s willing to seize an unfair shoe advantage, and who is partnering with a powerful company to stretch the limits of human performance, and still be clean??
From so many of the posts on here it’s almost like people think that if an athlete is doping it suddenly makes them super human. At it’s essence all EPO does is increase red blood cells making oxygen distribution and use more efficient, boosting endurance beyond what’s normal.
How does having more red blood cells give Superhuman endurance?
Most of the doping apologists for Kenya here have rarely left their upper middle-class white only suburbs, let alone spent considerable time in a Third World nation. They have no concept of the difference in everyday corruption.
Why do spend so much time promoting EPO as a performance enhancer?
My offer still stands, $10,000 if you can explain how it gives superhuman oxygen delivery.
Actually, just for you, make that £10,000.
You play this silly game again and again. Your money is safe because no one can ever convince you.
In the meantime, countless athletes dope because from experience they know better than you, who have none.
Elite performers are by definition outliers. Their performances, by definition, are unlike any that have ever occurred before. You can't just use others runners performance career trajectory to predict elite performers performance. Elite performances are uniquely special.
Paula Radcliffe or Joan Benoit-Samuelson are good examples. They were good 10K track runner but who would have predicted she would be arguably the two best womans marathoner of all time? Something about her and the marathon clicked and the rest is history. (PS. I would eat my fingers off if either doped).
Maybe Kipchoge is a super responder to super shoes? Maybe he just has the perfect body for the marathon? maybe his slow steady approach to training allowed him to smash marathons in his 30's? Who knows? He's the GOAT though for sure and uniquely special.
Honestly, I would be shocked if he were a doper. He seems special enough that doping isn't needed. It also just doesn't fit into his personality...he seems so level headed and focused on doing things the right way. Win at all costs doping doesn't seem like part of his worldview.
What do you know about Kipchoge's "personality" other than the occasional media interview or a YouTube race clip? All you have seen is his "public face". If people have things they don't want others to know these things can be easily concealed. People are complex. You will be surprised to know how some "level-headed" people choose to behave.
Anyone who is running top 10 in an event on the world level is suspect. This shouldn’t even be debatable.
I've asked it before and I'll ask it again; why do all the people who rant about how "any athlete who succeeds must be cheating," and "it's impossible to run (insert arbitrary performance benchmark here) clean," even follow the sport? If you're that cynical and that determined not to believe anything you see, go find something else to watch! Of course plenty of top athletes have been busted for doping, but that is no guarantee that any particular individual athlete is. When there's actual evidence of specific actions (such as an adverse result or a missed test), then it's fair to doubt the athlete in question. But if somebody never misses a test and never has an adverse result (i.e., Kipchoge, Bolt, Mu, or even--gasp!--your precious Jakob), then you'd do well to remember that they are innocent till proven guilty).
1. He was great in his 20s but never GOAT-level like he is now.
Well GOAT is subjective but aged 18 he won WORLD 5000 champs in 2003 beating peak Bekele and El G at their peaks. Yeah I realise on letsrun this may 'prove' only that he started doping as a mid to late teen. I think he's clean - for a whole host of reasons that go beyond just data,
Anyone who is running top 10 in an event on the world level is suspect. This shouldn’t even be debatable.
I've asked it before and I'll ask it again; why do all the people who rant about how "any athlete who succeeds must be cheating," and "it's impossible to run (insert arbitrary performance benchmark here) clean," even follow the sport? If you're that cynical and that determined not to believe anything you see, go find something else to watch! Of course plenty of top athletes have been busted for doping, but that is no guarantee that any particular individual athlete is. When there's actual evidence of specific actions (such as an adverse result or a missed test), then it's fair to doubt the athlete in question. But if somebody never misses a test and never has an adverse result (i.e., Kipchoge, Bolt, Mu, or even--gasp!--your precious Jakob), then you'd do well to remember that they are innocent till proven guilty).
First of all, Ffhjj said "suspect", not "must be cheating".
Second, we don't know how many tests Kipchoge, Bolt, Mu and Jakob missed and how often they had an adverse result, because that information is kept a secret. We only hear (normally) when one missed three tests within 12 months or tested positive in both the A and B samples (AAF, not just ATF) - unless that is covered up of course.
Third, why can't I enjoy watching, say, Armstrong beating Ullrich (or "follow the sport") while thinking they both are likely dopers? Turns out, I did enjoy that, and I was right.
you have a guy almost 40 years, set the WR near 2 hours flat, entirely dominating competitors that are most likely doping on EPO plus, with many busted already, on a monthly basis.
this is what the fringe contenders are up against, i.e. robertson.
Keep in mind that EPO is only one banned substance that assists in performance.
Regardless, to get to 2:0h-something, you are an outliar, clean or dirty. This of course is partly due to talent, but my assumption is that we haven't exhausted the human ability yet — not even close. Out of eight billion humans currently on earth, we likely know by name the vast majority of those who run 200 kilometres per week with the purpose of running a fast marathon. Proverbial drop in the old bucket.
The sad reality is that running is probably like cycling (or baseball in the 90s)--so many athletes are doping that you never know who is clean and dirty. The best athlete is no more likely than the 50th best athlete to be dirty but no more likely to be clean either. This board always itself into knots explaining why this athlete or country is more or less likely to be doping. But human nature is the same everywhere.
From so many of the posts on here it’s almost like people think that if an athlete is doping it suddenly makes them super human. At it’s essence all EPO does is increase red blood cells making oxygen distribution and use more efficient, boosting endurance beyond what’s normal. Does it prevent an athlete from becoming injured or slow down the aging process? No. Kipchoge is an outlier in this way in so many respects. He has had a world class career that has spanned the good part of 2 decades, rarely if ever has had a serious injury and now in his late 30s has continued to improve on his marathon times. EPO does not have the ability to help an athlete continue to improve as they age. If an athlete has been doping for a long period of time you would still expect their performances to gradually decline as part of the normal aging process. For whatever reason Kipchoge has managed to continue to improve. I believe this is primarily the result of him perfecting his marathon race more and more which has had a net positive impact over any negative impact from aging. I do believe however that Kipchoge will probably not make much more of a dent in his world record. No matter how much of an outlier he is as an athlete Mother Nature will eventually catch up.
This is such a strawman argument, people know that doping doesn't turn you from a couch bum to a 2:01 marathoner. Your arguments don't make sense, doping absolutely can help prevent injuries.
Your post received a huge majority of upvotes ?? Wow... Let's Run Mob mentality at its finest.
You ironically attack his points as a "straw man argument" and then you proceed to do exactly that: misrepresent his point and then knock it down. Bravo! You score points for hypocrisy and/or poor reading comprehension and/or disingenuous characterization of his point.
Did he say "people [ think] that EPO can take you from being a couch bum to a 2:01 marathoner" ??? Did he even suggest such a thing? Nowhere. Strawman at its finest.
What he DID say [ I am not agreeing or disagreeing with his point but simply restating what he actually said ] was that EPO has a narrow physiological area where it can make an athlete better: It can improve one's endurance. He went on to say that there is no evidence that it can keep you from getting injured [such as the various knee injuries, hamstring injuries, Achilles tendon injuries etc etc] and Kipchoge has been remarkably injury-free
He went on to say there is no evidence that by taking EPO one can prolong one's prime or peak career years. His gist was that Kipchoge has some specific natural freakish qualities that could explain his dominance that in his opinion EPO would not necessarily assist with [ he could have added that Kipchoge was remarkably gifted at a very young age of course defeating 2 all-time greats at age 19 years old]
He wrote NOTHING about people believing that EPO can take an average Joe and turn them into the world's greatest marathoner ever. Right? Right. So you're much approved comment that his points constituted" such a strawman argument" is wrong and your follow up" [ because] people know that doping doesn't turn you from a couch bum to a 2:01 marathoner" is in fact much more of a straw man argument than his argument. And then you finish with "doping absolutely prevents injuries" while he was specifically talking about EPO not doping in general and of course you offer no proof for your assertion [ which could be true. But we need more than a Trumpian "everybody knows" to believe you].
This is such a strawman argument, people know that doping doesn't turn you from a couch bum to a 2:01 marathoner. Your arguments don't make sense, doping absolutely can help prevent injuries.
Your post received a huge majority of upvotes ?? Wow... Let's Run Mob mentality at its finest.
You ironically attack his points as a "straw man argument" and then you proceed to do exactly that: misrepresent his point and then knock it down. Bravo! You score points for hypocrisy and/or poor reading comprehension and/or disingenuous characterization of his point.
Did he say "people [ think] that EPO can take you from being a couch bum to a 2:01 marathoner" ??? Did he even suggest such a thing? Nowhere. Strawman at its finest.
What he DID say [ I am not agreeing or disagreeing with his point but simply restating what he actually said ] was that EPO has a narrow physiological area where it can make an athlete better: It can improve one's endurance. He went on to say that there is no evidence that it can keep you from getting injured [such as the various knee injuries, hamstring injuries, Achilles tendon injuries etc etc] and Kipchoge has been remarkably injury-free
He went on to say there is no evidence that by taking EPO one can prolong one's prime or peak career years. His gist was that Kipchoge has some specific natural freakish qualities that could explain his dominance that in his opinion EPO would not necessarily assist with [ he could have added that Kipchoge was remarkably gifted at a very young age of course defeating 2 all-time greats at age 19 years old]
He wrote NOTHING about people believing that EPO can take an average Joe and turn them into the world's greatest marathoner ever. Right? Right. So you're much approved comment that his points constituted" such a strawman argument" is wrong and your follow up" [ because] people know that doping doesn't turn you from a couch bum to a 2:01 marathoner" is in fact much more of a straw man argument than his argument. And then you finish with "doping absolutely prevents injuries" while he was specifically talking about EPO not doping in general and of course you offer no proof for your assertion [ which could be true. But we need more than a Trumpian "everybody knows" to believe you].
Ok Mob dullards.... do your thing! 👎 👎👎 👎👎 👎👎 👎
Buddy, he was saying that just because Kipchoge obviously has rare gifts, that’s no indication he’s not doping. Doping won’t turn just anyone into a superhuman, but that doesn’t mean the guy putting up seemingly superhuman performances isn’t doping.
Next time you accuse 8 out of 9 people of having poor reading comprehension or being “mob dullards,” slow down and consider that maybe you’re not following.
Kipchoge doesn't need to race more than twice in a year. He doesn't need the money he already has plenty of it.He doesn't need the publicity either or to build his name he already is a global icon.
it's insane that those are the only 2 reasons you could think of why a Marathoner would race a 10K or HM
Just assume all elites dope and that this makes it a level playing field. Then, enjoy the sport without constantly pondering whether specific runners dope or not and without feeling betrayed or let down when someone's caught doping.
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