Rita Jeptoo tests positive

Just a troll.

ukathleticscoach wrote:

'i woud get get peak geoffrey/dennis/wilson/manny/patrick/sammy at lot better than 26'17wr if they'd run rested/good-paced to 1/2-way 10ks at their M peak off just M training'

Does it ever occur to you that an athlete might be better at a certain distance than another ie Bekele had more speed than any of them and would have murdered them over 5/10km at his peak

at 5k he wouda easily beat them but they woud still probably be able to go something like 12'45 - 12'50 off just far superior endurance

at 10k it woud be a different story & i'd expect the young 2"02/2"03 guys ( not geb ) to be around 26'17wr

these guys have something like 55/56s speed

( contrary to your belief, these guys do have some basic speed & will do some work for it even when training for M )

55.0 / 12'50 ->

3'39.2

7'32.0

26'25.3

55.0 / 12'45 ->

3'38.5

7'29.6

26'12.6 !!

56.0 / 12'50 ->

3'41.0

7'33.6

26'18.5

56.0 / 12'45 ->

3'40.2

7'31.2

26'05.7 !!!

you don't seem to have the clue that you can be around 3'40 but can still smash the 10k wr off good enough endurance

reality man wrote:

J.R. is the other extreme from T-Rexing. One says raw veganism is the perfect diet, and all drugs, vaccines, etc., are fake quackery. The other says Kenyans are genetically superior to the rest of the world and that's all there is to it, Food Pyramid/MyPlate is the pinnacle of nutrition, and anyone who questions the medical establishment is crazy.

While this does seem to sum up J.R.'s position pretty accurately, it's really a caricature of T-Rexing's. The former is an idiot, but's more the latter's grating STYLE than [b[what he actually says that people seem to fins truly annoying!!!!

By the way, what distinguishes "fake quackery" from "real quackery"? Shouldn't we see the former as a good thing?

From a 1997 NY Times article article on the suspicion of doping:

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/11/02/sports/marathon-forecast-for-marathon-cloud-may-be-following-several-runners-around.html

"After a summer of startling world records on the track, the autumn has brought searing times in the marathon. These days, however, rare speed is often followed across the finish line by widespread suspicion.

Fair or not, that is the case with Kenyan athletes coached by an Italian doctor named Gabriele Rosa. This year, his athletes have won marathons from Cancun to Paris, taking first and second in Berlin and Turin, Italy, and posting two of the year's three fastest times for the distance of 26 miles 385 yards. A month ago, runners from Rosa's group hit on the win, place and show tickets at the world half-marathon championships.

Fourteen international marathoners have run under 2 hours 8 minutes 24 seconds this year, and five of them are coached by Rosa and his two sons, Marco and Federico, who are also doctors. Three of their Kenyan athletes will be among the favorites today in the 28th running of the New York City Marathon, including Joseph Chebet, who won the Turin Marathon in 2:08:23 in May...."

Why the fvck is Federico not being identified as what he really is? He is much more than an agent.

Yet Federico has the audacity to insinuate Kenyans are ruining his and his family's good name when it is they who prefer to set camp in the Rift Valley over working with athletes back home in Italy and elsewhere. How long before they leave this country of treacherous, dishonest, cheaters? Hint: Never.

you don't seem to have the clue that you can be around 3'40 but can still smash the 10k wr off good enough endurance[/quote]

Speed endurance not marathon endurance. There is a world of difference between marathon WR pace and 10km WR pace.

Then your talk of 55 second 400m speed. Every decent distance runner in my club could run 53 and they were endurance based. You are undermining your own argument.

The best conversion rate for eleite runners from 400m to 800m is 4 seconds, You are giving a 5 second differential to their 5km times. Impossible

Then this:

56.0 / 12'45 ->

3'40.2

7'31.2

26'05.7 !!!

6.6 second differential per lap to 400m pb ->

Moronic !!

One thing that bugs the crap out of me is how I constantly witness posters on this forum bowing down to a certain foreign coach who is always pointing out how American runners train all wrong and that's one of the reasons for Kenyan dominance.

I wish the Marathon Majors would do some actual investigating of these agents, coaches and training groups, to learn what's really going on behind closed doors. I guess the German journalist's work wasn't enough.

"Fourteen international marathoners have run under 2 hours 8 minutes 24 seconds this year, and five of them are coached by Rosa and his two sons, Marco and Federico, who are also doctors."

Doctors as coaches?

Can anyone say "Jamie Astaphan"?

Jeff Wigand: "I don't think..."

Now THAT is something we can agree upon.

Powell has what?

Chikungunya?

I thought that was a chicken nugget joke, but I just googled it and it is real!

So does he have it, or what? Or is he just using it as an excuse for constant doctor visits?

Finally wrote:

Jeff Wigand: "I don't think..."

Now THAT is something we can agree upon.

Somebody's a regular at the Cellar.

Emerald wrote:

"Fourteen international marathoners have run under 2 hours 8 minutes 24 seconds this year, and five of them are coached by Rosa and his two sons, Marco and Federico, who are also doctors."

Doctors as coaches?

Can anyone say "Jamie Astaphan"?

For Doctor's Rosa:

"Sexy Sadie"

Sexy Sadie what have you done

You made a fool of everyone

You made a fool of everyone

Sexy Sadie ooh what have you done

Sexy Sadie you broke the rules

You layed it down for all to see

You layed it down for all to see

Sexy Sadie oooh you broke the rules

One sunny day the world was waiting for a lover

She came along to turn on everyone

Sexy Sadie the greatest of them all

Sexy Sadie how did you know

The world was waiting just for you

The world was waiting just for you

Sexy Sadie oooh how did you know

Sexy Sadie you'll get yours yet

However big you think you are

However big you think you are

Sexy Sadie oooh you'll get yours yet

We gave her everything we owned just to sit at her table

Just a smile would lighten everything

Sexy Sadie she's the latest and the greatest of them all

She made a fool of everyone

Sexy Sadie

However big you think you are

Sexy Sadie

today?

Renato Canova's language barrier has actually worked in his favor here. Were he to write a column in unimpeachable, Scott Douglas-style English expressing the same things he's expressed in this thread, even more people would undoubtedly dismiss him as a strict apologist if not an outright liar. Whether these charges would be accurate or not isn't for me to say, but the Letsrun.com crowd isn't renowned for widely accepting "Trust me, I know this runner inside and out and and there's no way she'd stoop to drug-cheating" from anyone, and certainly not from someone who adds "not that it would help her if she did."

Sorry I've been busy for the last few days but still wanted to respond. Again, my simple statement is that EPO is unproven for elite athletes at longer distances. Arguing that evidence cannot be collected seems to support an idea that not enough evidence has yet been collected. If sufficient evidence cannot be collected then we should accept that any conclusions carry a certain amount of uncertainty. The strength of any conclusion rests on the collection of evidence that supports it. I don't require clinical studies, but would accept any evidence that remove doubts, or help reinforce a position, before attempting to pass hypothesis as established fact. If we do not have evidence (clinical or non-clinical) that removes doubt, then my assertion that doubt exists seems to be correct. For example, any proposed benefit of EPO on elite marathon runners who have been trained to their natural potential, is at this point, an interesting hypothesis, that still needs to be confirmed or debunked.There is a study that could be done using the same level of ethics:- Take the mediocre athletes, and continue the WADA study for 2 more years, and see if the same gap exists. Maybe EPO gains are only short term, and the observed short term improvements can be overcome in the long term.This would add an interesting data point.Your instant response to me was to point out the story of Cathal Lombard. Let's put aside I did not have a 30:00 runner in mind when I chose the word "elite". But how you view him depends on an important starting point:- Is he naturally a 27:30 runner, who miserably failed to reach his potential, or a 30:00 runner who was helped by the increased RBC that EPO provided?Cathal was doing a lot of things wrong before, if an EPO regime could bring him to 27:30.Usually for 10K, people speak of something like 40 second improvements due to EPO. That Lombard improved by almost 3 minutes suggests:- Lombard was not training the right way, pre-EPO- other things, besides EPO, contributed significantly to this dramatic breakthrough- he should be considered an "exception" rather than the ruleI thought I answered your repeated question -- Cathal made a breakthrough, because Cathal made many other significant changes to his training, and mentality. Others did not make the breakthrough, because they were not in the same situation as Cathal: blocked from reaching their potential due to bad training, and unblocking this with several radical changes to their training. Others perhaps lacked the potential, or failed to make changes in their approach/mentality that Cathal did. It is not Cathal's new coach that caused the improvement, but rather the changes that Cathal made to his training, one of which was EPO.I bothered to look now at Hassan Hirt now. I would agree that his improvement could have been largely psychological. He believed he had a problem, and taking EPO made him believe he was addressing his problem. He could have made the same progress with a well timed "hi/lo" training period, if he believed that would work.With respect to Lance and the TdF, I really believe:- Cycling for 3 weeks relies on protective and daily recovery mechanisms during the course of the race that do not translate well to running events.- A stronger case exists for cycling, than for "running distance events" that "EPO was a game changer in the 1990's". But this "stronger case" is still clouded by many other uncontrolled elements.- Lance's doping went way beyond EPO and blood transfusions increasing RBC.- Psychology played a significant role in Lance's success. He believed he and his team were invincible, and made others believe that the US Post/Discovery team was unbeatable.- His doping was always more sophisticated than his competitors. Testimony from others said he was always 1-2 years ahead of the rest of the peloton. For example, we know he was blood doping during the tour, with blood transfusions in hotels and busses. These were risks that they were taking that other teams likely were not.- Lance couldn't win a single tour on his own, without also doping his teammates, unlike Lemond over Hinault, or Contador over Armstrong.

This looks like an indictment on how "more people" react to what they hear, than anything to do with Canova, or a Scott Douglas-style expressions.I feel pity for "more people" if there reactions can be swayed by language barriers. These people should learn how to overcome their instant reflexes.

KMB wrote:

Renato Canova's language barrier has actually worked in his favor here. Were he to write a column in unimpeachable, Scott Douglas-style English expressing the same things he's expressed in this thread, even more people would undoubtedly dismiss him as a strict apologist if not an outright liar. Whether these charges would be accurate or not isn't for me to say, but the Letsrun.com crowd isn't renowned for widely accepting "Trust me, I know this runner inside and out and and there's no way she'd stoop to drug-cheating" from anyone, and certainly not from someone who adds "not that it would help her if she did."

What's the timeline for Jeptoo's "B" analysis results?

rekrunner wrote:

Sorry I've been busy for the last few days but still wanted to respond. Again, my simple statement is that EPO is unproven for elite athletes at longer distances.

[/quote]

Rashid Ramzi. Went from a guy who would likely not qualify for NCAAs to a guy running 3:28 and double world champ.

No performance means you are 'too fast' to be doped. Your failure to understand this suggests a gaping mental blind spot. Either you are very foolish or you are very invested in believing that people don't cheat.

Do you think Asbel Kiprop is too moral to cheat? Do you think his doctor/agents are holding back? We're talking about a guy who has pistol whipped people unconscious and threatened to kill/abused his wife.

Do us all a favor and stay off the message boards. This site is for runners, and not for people who are full of crap.