Rita Jeptoo tests positive

not sure about the 4-5 min advantage but in Jeptoo's' case, and this is also in regard to what someone described as an "inflection point", that point being the year 2012.

In the 2008 Boston marathon she came in 3rd after falling off the pace and finishing a minute behind the duel between Dire Tune and the Russian Biktimirova. She ran NY that fall and finished 4th, even farther behind Radcliffe, Petrova, and Goucher. She was 27 y.o. and obviously decided after a good run that it was time for a break and a baby, having won Boston in 2006 and Milan in 2004.

Coming back from her pregnancy in 2011 she finished 5th in both Rotterdam and Frankfurt, she was 30 y.o. Now maybe she just amped up her training, but the next year in the 2012 Chicago marathon she finished a close 2nd, losing by just 1 second to the younger Ethiopian Baysa despite running her fastest time ever: 2:22:04. 6 months later she wins Boston by over 30 seconds after Flanagan (4th) strung out the field. Later in 2013 she wins Chicago by 51 seconds in her fastest time ever at age 32.

This year she wins Boston in a course record 2:18:57 over a minute ahead of a 26 y.o. Deba .

So she runs her three fastest times ( significantly faster) in her last three races.

Her career "inflection point" was sometime in 2012.

All of those diseases were caused by poor sanitation practices, poor immune systems and increased by drugs, including vaccinations which have caused the deaths of millions of people. Improving sanitation was opposed by those promoting the drugs, and they still push drugs ahead of having healthy constitutions, which drugs destroy.

No, diabetics do not profit from the quackery of insulin injections, and similar answers to your other questions, which you should be able to see for yourself.

You're delusional and making stuff up.

I have always posted that drugs affect the body in dangerous ways, certainly in no ways that aid performance more than anything that is normal without drugs.

What you mean is too many drugs in the sport, of which you keep promoting the use of.

Please do get anesthesized before your next race and then post about how much it helps you run faster.

yyy wrote:

Well, JR should be happy he lives in a society where

infectious diseases like the ones you mention, have largely

been eliminated.

However, he is immune to reason.

Yeah right, like swine flu, bird flu, and ebola, all of them created by big pharma. Coincidently, they are in charge of that too.

The tinfoil hat is strong with this one.

noce wrote:

The tinfoil hat is strong with this one.

If you're new here, JR is indeed a looney.

Obviously he hasn't watched baseball. The statistics prove that steroids changed the game, and it changed again when they got rid of them.

been here long enough to remember the time when JR posted more about running than his conspiracy theories.

Actually had a friend say today he hated all the dope talk in sports but at least baseball was being tough on drugs. Thankfully he did not say MLB has gotten rid of doping.

I asked him when was the last time MLB handed out a 4 year ban because athletics regularly gives out 2 and 4 year bans. He said that would be too long and an unfair because it could end a persons career.

I gave him my best Mortimer Snerd response.

If I made any mistakes, please point them out specifically. This is in fact my main purpose.My claim is that evidence doesn't exist. Ridiculous or not, you seem to agree that not only does it not yet exist, it will never exist. Therefore, you call me naive for refusing to draw conclusions based on faith.At the time of his improvements, Cathal Lombard changed coaches, and made significant changes to his training (replacing mileage for speed and strength). This raises two questions: 1) Can we attribute his improvements to EPO? 2) Can we generalize this "elite" to all elites?The problem I have with "Lombard, Boulami, Mourhit, Ramzi" is the lack of control. I see no reason to generalize these outliers, putting aside attributing their achievements to EPO. By the way, are there any East African examples?Keep in mind, we have people like "bluesky" passing as fact that EPO gives a 4-5 minute advantage for 2:14 marathon athletes. And the best evidence for this seems to be Cathal Lombard, and a WADA study on 11:00 minute 3000m runners.

enforcer wrote:

Yes and everything you say is largely naive and mistaken on this subject. You are never going to get an official clinical trial on the effects of EPO in elite athletes and so to hang onto this to support your belief that the effects of EPO are "unproven" at the "elite" level is ridiculous, with all due respect.

No one else from Cathal Lombard's coach's group made the same sort of breakthrough that he did and no one else from that group tested positive for EPO. Yet Cathal Lombard believing that EPO did not work on him is sufficient to convince you that it's effects are "unproven".

If 27-30 for 10000m is not "elite" enough for you, see also Boulami, Mourhit, Ramzi and see how fast they ran when they were no longer taking EPO. Or are maybe they not "elite" enough for you either ...

noce wrote:

The tinfoil hat is strong with this one.

hahaha....

noce wrote:

been here long enough to remember the time when JR posted more about running than his conspiracy theories.

I'd be glad when the drugs disappear and running comes back.

These "drops" can also be attributed to only a handful of runners. You seem to argue that in distance events, only a handful of runners discovered the major benefits of EPO, before testing caught up.In 3000m, take away Daniel Komen, and your 9 seconds become 6. Take away El G., and now it's 4. Is 4 seconds still unprecedented in history? If not, you seem to argue that "maybe" two people majorly inflected the records, and it must have been because of EPO.In 5000m, this 20 second drop can be attributed to one athlete: Geb. If I'm generous, we can add Kiptanui and Komen. Two more athletes in the discovery pool.In 1000m, 45 seconds seems an exaggeration, but similarly in 10000m, we could only add Hissou and Tergat.So, while the cycling world (every nation except Africa) was swimming in EPO, the major inflection points in distance running was due to the EPO secret discovered by a half dozen African athletes.Presumably, by using the term "major inflection point", you presume to represent some high mathematical or statistical standard. You can stand by your statements, but your statements do not stand on their own.

Rift Raff wrote:

In the mid-90s, the 3000m WR dropped nine seconds, the 5000 almost twenty seconds and the 10000 45 seconds. These drops are unprecedented in running history, and all came during the period where there was no test for EPO. My statement stands.

rekrunner wrote:

I looked at all these times -- there is no major inflection point.

For distance running, EPO is largely unproven at the elite level.

I don't know if you need to go all-caps on him, but I agree with the general sentiment. Obviously he's a pretty knowledgeable guy in the area of coaching runners, but his whole argument about EPO doesn't hold water. It sounds so snobbish, that bit about "it only works for second-tier runners". Like, it can help a 2:12 guy become a 2:08 guy, or it can help somebody like Eddy Hellebuyck drop minutes off his time as a masters runner and run 2:11, but if you give it to a 2:04 guy, it won't benefit them? (not to mention, maybe they are a 2:04 guy BECAUSE they took EPO - it's like Canova's trying to turn sanity on its head, and the people that are running these unbelievable times, rather than arousing suspicion, are supposed to be granted a free pass, because of course nobody could run that fast unless they were clean). He makes these concessions now, that there indeed are some unscrupulous people operating in Kenya, and some mentally weak runners who give in to the temptation to dope, but he can personally vouch for all the guys he works with - they're not like that at all, they all have real character, AND it just happens that they are so freaking talented that it wouldn't help them anyway. That's about like saying, sure, steroid use is rife in body-building, but the really, REALLY top bodybuilders don't need it and wouldn't benefit from it anyway, because they are already so dang muscular.

Anyway, Jeptoo's case kind of calls BS on the claim that EPO is not useful for top-tier elites.

Which is why it is important for Kenya to have absolutely ZERO cases of doping because, as Rita's case proves, Westerners are incapable or unwilling to see us as individuals. So it takes just one cheater to cast a shadow over the entire country. But I wonder it is possible to completely wipe it out of America with all its resources can't.

El Keniano wrote:

as Rita's case proves, Westerners are incapable or unwilling to see us as individuals. So it takes just one cheater to cast a shadow over the entire country.

Except it is two high level athletes now. From the same group. In an area where drug testing is not as easy to do as in most other countries. This place happens to be one that produces an absurdly high number of high level athletes.

Matthew Kisorio, a sub 59 minute half-marathoner, the first to get popped, said doping was rampant in kenya. Renato has tried to downplay this. Now a super high level athlete gets popped.

I certainly don't think all sub 2:05 men or 2:18 women are dopers. However, I think the depth we are seeing now raises some questions. How are we seeing so many of these performances that were once so rare? Sure, money is a factor - more talented people are trying it. So are changes in tactics and approach to marathon. But I am not surprised that there are more than a few cheats. Now, 6 WMM victories are in question - Jeptoo's and the Russian's. And Kisorio, an absolute top tier Kenyan, has been caught.If I were the WMM's I would require out of comp tests before paying appearance fees. And those fees and prize money should be subject to a clawback. If not, next time 5 or 6 guys go 2:04 in Dubai, I will guess that at least one is dirty,

reader of the forums wrote:

El Keniano wrote:

as Rita's case proves, Westerners are incapable or unwilling to see us as individuals. So it takes just one cheater to cast a shadow over the entire country.

Except it is two high level athletes now. From the same group. In an area where drug testing is not as easy to do as in most other countries. This place happens to be one that produces an absurdly high number of high level athletes.

Matthew Kisorio, a sub 59 minute half-marathoner, the first to get popped, said doping was rampant in kenya. Renato has tried to downplay this. Now a super high level athlete gets popped.

they're all filthy wrote:

Anyway, Jeptoo's case kind of calls BS on the claim that EPO is not useful for top-tier elites.

Her case says very little about the actual utility of EPO, but the fact that she took it speaks volumes about the PERCEIVED UTILITY OF EPO to a top elite Kenyan runner.

Someone out there involved with Jeptoo does not agree with Canova's pet theory.

I completely agree... sadly, most people on here do not understand.

"Often those who don't know statistics feel compelled to explain what are otherwise natural low & high fluctuations in data." -Neil deGrasse Tyson

J.R. wrote:

No, diabetics do not profit from the quackery of insulin injections, and similar answers to your other questions, which you should be able to see for yourself.

Injecting insulin is quackery for diabetics?

I guess I'm alive through other means then?

1) Type I diabetics do not produce insulin.

2) Insulin is necessary for cells to take up glucose

3) Cells without glucose die

Which of those do you dispute?