Doug Soles calls out NY/FM

NXNer wrote:

Of course it could potentially change the results. His idea is that if Manlius wasn't able to develop middle schoolers, they wouldn't run as fast as high schoolers. That is what he is saying. I agree with that actually.

What I was trying to say was that not allowing middle schoolers to compete at nationals is a lot different than not allowing them to train/compete with their high school teams during the regular season. The former just removes a couple meets from a talented 7th/8th graders schedule, but doesn't affect change their early training/development (save for some big meet experience). Coach Soles seems to be asking for the former but I don't think it addresses his issue with FM (that they can train athletes for up to 6 years under the same program)

Coach wrote:

A Penn Relay wheel IS the dream of most HS coaches in the northeast, many could care less about the so called national meets in June. But I guess it is understood that an athlete has 4 years of HS to compete at Penns.

I've never been to Pennsylvania, and relay meets suck.

NXNer wrote:

Of course it could potentially change the results. His idea is that if Manlius wasn't able to develop middle schoolers, they wouldn't run as fast as high schoolers. That is what he is saying. I agree with that actually.

Manlius doesn't coach middle school runners. Only a few, 3 in eleven years, have run on the Manlius team at NXN. Not having 8th graders on the team would not change the results in the least. Manlius would still win. Soles would still lose.

The only difference is that deserving young girls would be deprived of a lifetime opportunity to compete with their team at NXN. It is hard to believe that a supposed professional coach would continue to try and make a big deal out of this.

Only 3 ran at NXN in all these years? Even if true, how many have trained with the HS team or under Coach Aris in grade 7 and 8 during the season - only 3?

Here is a list of the 7th and 8th-grade girls who have run on the Fayetteville-Manlius Varsity cross country team since 2004 with respective grade (list based on results of varsity races):

2016 - none

2015 - Claire Walters (8th), Phoebe White (8th, not on NXN team)

2014 - none

2013 - Sophie Ryan (8th)

2012 - none

2011 - Jenna Farrell (8th)

2010 - none

2009 - Maggie Malone (8th, not on NXN team)

2008 - none

2007 - none

2006 - Courtney Chapman (8th grade)

2005 - Mackenzie Carter (8th grade)

2004 - none

I could not find any 7th-grade FM girls in the results of any varsity results, or on the FM rosters provided to the local Syracuse newspaper.

Here is a list of the FM girls on the 2016 NXN team ... The list includes their grade this year and the grades they started running for the FM Junior High and Varsity teams:

Claire Walters FR - Varsity (8th)

Phoebe White FR - Varsity (8th)

Sophie Ryan JR - Jr High (7th), Varsity (8th)

Palmer Madsen JR - Jr High (8th), Varsity (9th)

Rebecca Walters JR - Varsity (10th)

Reilly Madsen SR - Jr High (8th), Varsity (9th)

Alex Villalba JR - Jr High (7th,8th), Varsity (9th)

The NXN Awards Presentation made it seem like they all started in 8th grade, but some were running Junior High in 7th grade and Rebecca Walters did not start running until 10th grade ... Phoebe White did start running varsity track as a 7th-grader.

E-mail inquiries to me wonder what "access to 7th and 8th-graders" in New York actually means ... It depends upon the school and the league in NY which can enforce their own rules ... There are a few schools in NY that do not allow 7th and 8th-graders to compete on the varsity teams ... NY State gives them permission to allow 7th and 8th-grade participation, but they opt not to.

Many small schools (like Tully) have only one coach for both the varsity and junior high teams, so they commonly practice together due to supervisory necessities (although workouts are different) ... So it is total access to 7th and 8th-graders for some.

Most schools (especially the larger schools) have multiple coaches and completely separate coaches and practices for varsity and junior high teams ... As noted before, some leagues have rules that prohibit varsity and junior high teams from practicing together ... That was the case for FM's league some years back, but I have no idea if that is the current situation.

So "access" for some in NY is limited ... FM has different coaches and different practices for their junior high and varsity teams ... That does not mean Bill Aris has no access to the junior high team ... He can consult and make suggestions to the JH coaches and go to their practices and meets ... Unless there is a rule I don't know about, he can directly coach those JH kids ... BUT I think he spends his time with the varsity, coaching the varsity kids more individually than most people realize ... He told he about several instances in the past.

Yall need to chill out and listen up.

NXN is designed to be a high school national meet for cross country. Key word: High school. Change needs to be made to fulfill this, as the sport and athletes deserves to have a true showing of the nations ability. Allowing schools to have middle school runners on their team is diminishing other true high school team's chances, as well as individuals opportunities. If middle schoolers want to compete at a high level they can either wait their turn or run the junior Olympics, much like their older counter parts have.

On another note, you have these middle school runners who are pushing themselves at extreme levels at a young age. Especially for female runners, when those girls hit puberty their runner abilities unfortunately will drastically change. How is Grace Ping going to feel when she is a senior in high school and can no longer qualify to NXN? Talk about a confidence wrecker. If all these middle schoolers want to be super star runners from the get go why dont we form a middle school national meet and then laugh when none of those runners do shit in high school or college? Seriously their like 12, let them be children a little longer and dont put this unnecessary pressure and stress on them. Even if it is the children putting the pressure on themselves they are old enough to understand the repercussions that come with training at an intense level at a young age.

If NXN doesn't want to create a true high school nationals another company should step up and form one because that's the least we can give this already underappreciated sport. Almost all other high school sports have a true showing on the national level, why is it taking so long to do so for cross country?

Also, leave Doug Soles alone. He answered a question and now all you adults are acting like immature millennials who feel entitled to speak their mind when they are offended. Grow up.

Peanut butter and jealous wrote:

Also, leave Doug Soles alone. He answered a question and now all you adults are acting like immature millennials who feel entitled to speak their mind when they are offended. Grow up.

Poor Coach Soles. His proposal has been variously dismissed as self-serving, specious, irrelevant and ill conceived, but when has anyone said they were offended by it?

Dismissed by some, but validated and echoed by many others.

Who can deny that it's fundamentally unfair to allow some schools to include 7th and 8th graders, while some schools can not? It's a very simple and clear point.

Would Great Oak beat FM if the rules were changed to make NXN 9-12 grade only? Probably not, but it would be an undeniably more fair contest.

Interested Onlooker wrote:

Dismissed by some, but validated and echoed by many others.

Who can deny that it's fundamentally unfair to allow some schools to include 7th and 8th graders, while some schools can not? It's a very simple and clear point.

Would Great Oak beat FM if the rules were changed to make NXN 9-12 grade only? Probably not, but it would be an undeniably more fair contest.

Randomly removing half the girls from Great Oaks' team would also make it an undeniably even more fair contest between them and FM. Normalize the student-body size. FM has brought 8th-graders to NXN a whopping three times, while GO's talent pool is over twice the size every damn year. Funny how Coach Soles never apologizes for that.

Yeah, and then let's do some more jiggering to account for differences in demographics, weather, socio-economics, open-enrollment, quality of coaching, no-contact rules, whatever. Normalize every team. Make it totally "fair". Barf.

Hey if I don't get my way I'll just keep breaking more china!

D. Soles

I agree that it should be a high school only championship. Only high schools should be represented.

andicamp wrote:

Coach Soles wrote:

You think I handled this poorly. I think I got exactly what I wanted out of it...the conversation.

Your arguments do nothing to change the fact that the meet should be 9-12 to be a true high school championship. You can try to spin this or that to distract form that fact, but it doesn't change it.

Combining schools still makes no sense, but you can keep listing it if you think it is valid.

IT'S NOT A TRUE HIGH SCHOOL CHAMPIONSHIP!!!!!

IT'S A CLUB CHAMPIONSHIP!!!!!

YOU want it to be a true high school championship so that you will benefit.

But it's not, and it never has been.

Bingo!

Does anyone know Soles' running background? Did he run in college? Just curious.

But were there 7th or 8th graders in their top 7 that year (2016)? No

He was never a distance runner. He was a sprinter in HS and college

He looks stupid now. He coaches middle schoolers and high schoolers. Times have changed.

You should see this year’s (green) and last year’s (red) time trial results.

So many middle schoolers in these results.

There was even a 5th grader in the mile time trial last year.

Are you sure he coaches those grade 5-8 kids, or do they just run the summer mile time trial hosted by him?