Doug Soles calls out NY/FM

sucked in from the sidelines wrote:

Making "claims" about other schools?

The only claim I saw the guy makes was that it's an advantage for teams that can have 7th and 8th graders training and racing with them. Not a "claim", it's a fact.

Also, it's pretty obvious that it makes the team stronger.

In your case it probably would, as long as you're not the one training them.

CWRP wrote:

Here's the thing... Soles responded with an honest answer to a question. What will it take to beat FM? He didn't trash them, he answered the question honestly.

It might be the only way, so that's try that.

Hilton, anyone? wrote:

dig a little deeper? wrote:

Your analysis is only looks at championship titles. If you look at second and third place finishes for the girls, you see a much greater distribution of teams from across the nation. If I haven't miscounted, only girls teams from Saratoga Springs and Manlius have ever finished in the top three from New York in the history of NXN. If you really want to address the disparity in titles, changing the rules in order to cripple teams nationally that have younger kids won't help you that much. You really just need to somehow get one team -- Manlius -- out of the equation and you'll have achieved your goal.

You are incorrect.

Hilton (NY) won the girls race in 2005, and I believe were also on the podium in 2006.

And you are right, sir! Still, it doesn't change the larger truth that you have a much greater distribution in the second/third place results. You see teams from Colorado, Delaware, Illinois, Indiana, South Dakota, Minnesota, Utah, Texas and, of course, California. Interestingly, setting aside Manlius as an "outlier," California has more podiums than any other state (with eight).

I just suspect that mainly Coach Soles frustration comes from the fact that he has seen his girls up on the podium (impressively!) for three years in a row, also watching Aris and his girls hoisting up that big star trophy and the occasional puppy. His most resent team includes (again, if I am counting right!) five seniors, so he definitely has some rebuilding to do to get his kids back up there.

rolling onnnnnn wrote:

I just suspect that mainly Coach Soles frustration comes from the fact that he has seen his girls up on the podium (impressively!) for three years in a row, also watching Aris and his girls hoisting up that big star trophy and the occasional puppy. His most resent team includes (again, if I am counting right!) five seniors, so he definitely has some rebuilding to do to get his kids back up there.

You nailed the problem, Soles has too many seniors on his team! Next year he should have a team of mostly underclass girls, 9th and 10th graders, and should do much better!

sucked in from the sidelines wrote:

Making "claims" about other schools?

The only claim I saw the guy makes was that it's an advantage for teams that can have 7th and 8th graders training and racing with them. Not a "claim", it's a fact.

Also, it's pretty obvious that it makes the team stronger.

And, even if you have a club in which kids can attend in grade 7 and 8, it's a lot different than having them every day in a school program.

Geez, obviously it helps. Relax, NY is still great, the NY runners are still great, FM is still the best, nobody disputes any of that.

I'm not from FM or NY. I'm from a state where Soles would be sanctioned for coaching his team out of season.

He has claimed a special deal for NY teams, that middle schoolers train with FM, and that NY championships won with middle schoolers are tainted. Meanwhile, there has been conflicting info on what his off season access to his team and to middle schoolers is. It would help if he cleared that up. He has said if he had 100% access, the results would be different. Well, what kind of access does he currently have? If he wants a conversation he should share those facts. He also should support his claim that special rules are in place for NY teams.

why he went public with this when he has unique access to the folks at Nike who actually make the decision is beyond me.

As Bill Meylan points out, NY administrators have made a decision for their state about what is appropriate for their middle school athletes. CA has made a different decision. That does create differences, but no greater than the decision of school districts in some states to erect high schools numbering close to 4000 kids while others opt for 1500.

Why do you assume he hasn't spoken with the powers that be at Nike?

Well, if he did and they already weighed in then this is just sour grapes.

Nxnerr wrote:

Well, if he did and they already weighed in then this is just sour grapes.

and you post is what?

In fact, less than a special deal for New Yorkers. Early on there was a suggestion that the Fed meet be used in place of a regional. The powers that be in New York did not want that. Teams are not required to run the Fed meet but many do. California teams do not have to run a regional. That's an advantage and one that I have not heard many complain about. There's nothing the California teams can do - there's no time for a regional. However, not having to run one is clearly an advantage. One fewer week of hard racing.

As far as the Kinetic name goes, early on Nike was not so focused on making the names geographic as they are now and many teams used non-georgrahic names. However, when Nike began to require that names be geographically oriented the Kinetic name was grandfathered. I have no idea why some other non-geographic names were not grandfathered also. Perhaps teams did not request them.

Coach Soles,

Thanks for all of your input on this thread and starting the conversation. Clearly there are many ways that a school can have an advantage in cross country (or any sport), whether it is school size, demographics, good middle school coaches/continuity, training locations, etc. Some schools are going to have all of these, some are going to have none and most will have a mix. There is no way around it and it doesn't make NXN inherently unfair just because all teams/schools aren't the same. I completely agree with you that being able to train an individual for 6 years under the same program is going to be a huge advantage.

My question for you, however, is do you think that changing NXN to 9-12 would actually have an effect on the New York/Manlius dominance? Since it has been shown that generally 8th graders have had little impact on the results in Portland, and Manlius will still be able to train their 7th and 8th graders with Varsity if they see fit (per the NY state rules), I feel that changing the rules at NXN won't effect the final results. It's a tricky situation and I think the only way to get what you want is to have NY change its state rules and not allow middle schoolers to train/compete on high school teams. That is a slippery slope because there are schools so small (like the one I went to in MA) that they have to include middle schoolers on varsity teams because they can't field full teams otherwise.

I don't know what the right answer is, but I think it would be reasonable to keep NXN a 9-12 meet. As you mentioned, there are other opportunities for middle school age athletes that can be taken advantage of.

So you think it would be fair for girls who have competed for the school team all year, have run variety, won state meets, etc to be excluded for NXN? I would be disappointed in any team that would abandon its teammates and agree to go to any meet under those conditions.

The Penn Relays doesn't allow 7th and 8th graders to run varsity, I guess that's not fair.

Of course it could potentially change the results. His idea is that if Manlius wasn't able to develop middle schoolers, they wouldn't run as fast as high schoolers. That is what he is saying. I agree with that actually.

Coach Soles wrote:

Early History is 100% spot on. NY has made agreements and they have helped them at the meet. Anyone wonder why Saratoga is the only team (I believe) that gets to use their club name instead of their region name? Part of the agreement.

You can use club names in Texas, too. We're encouraged to use something different than the high school name, but you're ok to use the school name if it is an area (such as "The Woodlands"). One school that frequently qualifies simply uses the school name. Nobody has said anything about it.

Some teams just make up ridiculous names.

Changing nxn rules won't have any effect on whether or not FM middle schoolers train with the HS team though. If Bill Meylan's post is accurate, this may not be happening as much as people suggest anyway. Although Soles has succeeded in leaving the impression that these programs are combined for all kids every year. Of course, we don't know how much Soles trains middle schoolers feeding into his program because he hasn't addressed that.

Personally I'd rather be having a conversation about how well the girls on all those teams ran and what great sportsmanship the athletes displayed on the awards stand.

I do think track is a little different and Penn is not the culmination of a season in the way NXN is.

A Penn Relay wheel IS the dream of most HS coaches in the northeast, many could care less about the so called national meets in June. But I guess it is understood that an athlete has 4 years of HS to compete at Penns.

No, coach in the Northeast, it is not a dream at all. Don't even think about it.

It may be a dream for HS coaches in the Greater Philadelphia area, southern Jersey etc.. But not for the NORTHEAST.

Coach Soles wrote:

I haven't made the comment that middle schoolers are under or overtrained in CA. Some areas have clubs, some areas have middle school programs. I can't speak to overtrained middle schoolers in California because that isn't the case in my area, for which I am grateful. I have no doubt if I had 100% access to my middle schoolers it would change our results heavily at NXN on the girls side.

What some of you have not considered is that while middle school girls may be physically ready to compete at the highest levels in high school, they are not always mentally ready. That comes with maturity and experience. Plenty of middle school girls play other sports before joining a cross country team once they are mentally tough enough for the rigors and discipline of the sport. The 7th and 8th graders that can compete at those levels out of the gate are rare and will continue to be a factor through to their senior year. As Bill Meylan pointed out in an earlier thread, they account for about 2% of the runners at States. That kind of percentage is not what is making or breaking any program. Enrollment plays a bigger role. Our high school has a total enrolment of 480 students and yet the girls team was selected for an at-large bid and ultimately finished 4th a few years back (no middle schoolers on the team - three seniors, three juniors, one freshman). Now that is impressive.