BEST COMPROMISE between Footlocker and NXN

HS 'teams' are a really uninteresting comparison. It's based on population of the school and is on no way analogous (to college teams) when you scale it to the national level. FL is legit.

I actually think the teams are the more interesting race to follow. I coach at an extremely small school (70 students total 6-12) and we finished 22nd in our region last year with the worst race of our season (could have bee top ten on a better day). This is what we worked for for 6 years, three of those athletes went on to run D1. None of them had any hope of qualifying for FL, but there is more to XC than the individual. Within each XC race, there is a simultaneous competition with individuals and teams. Nike preserves that FL doesn't. It's like turning a national basketball competition into a skills challenge or a game of "21."

Any coach can end up with a genetic outlier (I may have one or two of those even at my small school), that is not necessarily good coaching. But to watch programs develop over many years...that is good coaching, that is a craft done well.

The only reason why NXN would even SLIGHTLY be considered superior is because teams can qualify.

IF THERE WERE NO TEAMS AT NXN, IT WOULD BE A JOKE!

[quote]Runn, please stop wrote:

No one on this board is as outspokenly anti-Footlocker as you. Why is that? Are you actually a coach? I understand preferring one meet over the other, but you're ignoring clear evidence to baselessly back up your own opinions (your "runners" aren't evidence). [quote]runn wrote:

I'm not outspokenly anti footlocker. I think Nike is the better alternative and I think FL made a mistake in not going the team route.

I also gave a very logical explanation of why Nike would be deeper. I also said that FL MAY get some of the best runners.

I know kids who've made the FL finals- I've supported them.

I simply disagree with FL's "philosophy":

XC is a team sport.

7th and 8th graders should be able to run.

I also like that Nike lets more in.

If having two championships is bad for the sport (as some have said) than I think that FL is the "bad guy" here simply because they limit participation.

FL has 40 kids, Nike has 45 individuals plus 154 from teams.

Do what I suggested:

Go to Nike NY, take the 15th to 20th place boys and plug their speed ratings into FL.

He's a Nike shill of the highest order - just like Limmer, Lanzalotto (who are actually directly affiliated with the NXN event) and others that bombard all of these boards telling you that Nike is the best and FL stinks. They keep telling you that FL is dead year after year after year and each November/December we have a bunch of threads about this topic. They think if they say it enough that they can will it to be so. It just goes to show the complete lack of character and intelligence of these guys.

I agree with an earlier post from this thread...I liked the Nike event for the first 5 years or so, but it is now getting pretty boring to me with the same teams making it and contending for the title every year.

First off, a COMPROMISE would be for Footlocker to let the TOP 4 from NXN run making it a field of 44 instead of 40.

Very few of the top runners are also on the top teams. Most top runners run on teams that WOULD HAVE NO CHANCE OF COMPETING AT A NATIONAL MEET. A lot of these runners teams don't even qualify for their state meet.

While xc is scored as a team, it is still just a collection of individual performances. One can say that training with the team helps the individual but most top runners are so much faster, this is irrelevant. Those top runners are more likely to key off other top runners during races than their teammates who are slower.

I think it's great that Nike started a team event, but what is NOT great is when they added individuals and positioned the meet so it is in conflict with the long running Footlocker. Clearly this is NOT doing what is best for the elite athlete who has to choose which one to run.

If Footlocker would let the 4 top individuals in from NXN run, that would allow to very best runners to not have to make that choice between individual competition and running with their team.

Nike thought they could come in, recruit kids at their state meets and take over, running the FL meet out of business. Well that didn't work and FL is still the better race for individuals. Now Nike refuses to admit defeat.

LTAD wrote:

That FM can win the girls title without a single person being in the top 45 (so not an all-american in the collegiate format), says that something is wrong with the meet. It is trying to be a NCAA clone (although that meet includes plenty of foreigners), but doesn't match it.

I don't think that a comparison between NXN and NCAA is entirely fair. I do think that the qualifying scheme for NXN does mirror NCAA in many ways, but here are some counterpoints:

These numbers are old, but in 2010-2011 there were approximately 24,500 public secondary schools in the United States. Even is you assume a portion of those are middle schools a lot of high schools. The number goes up when you include private/independent/parochial schools. Conversely, there were less than 3,000 bachelor's degree-granting institutions of higher learning, many of which don't offer athletics, many of which don't offer Division I NCAA athletics.

Since the vast majority of students go to school where their parents live and are either zoned for a school or elect a school within a zone or district, students don't have the same choice that they do in college. That's why in college the best top runners are on the same small number of teams. There's self-sorting and recruiting. So yes, it would be absurd for a Division I school to win NCAAs without a single All-American, but the likelihood of getting all the right individuals together from a single public high school to form the relative talent combination to rival top-to-bottom competitiveness mostly by luck is more absurd.

I'm no fan of NXN, but I do think there is something valuable about team competition. Teams work together, train together, win and lose together. "Regions" brought together for Footlocker feel meaningless. Who cares that much if the Midwest or the West wins this year? New York State has a competition between its eleven sections in the public school cross-country meet and there's at least a bit more of a regional rivalry there, but it's still artificial compared to the team competition.

FL is the only championships that matters now and the forseeable future.

Hrm...Hrm... wrote:

I'm no fan of NXN, but I do think there is something valuable about team competition. Teams work together, train together, win and lose together. "Regions" brought together for Footlocker feel meaningless. Who cares that much if the Midwest or the West wins this year? New York State has a competition between its eleven sections in the public school cross-country meet and there's at least a bit more of a regional rivalry there, but it's still artificial compared to the team competition.

A lot of the people from your region in FL end up on the same college teams. Plus, you're aware of them throughout the season as competition.

No one is discounting that friendship involved in HS teams is a super important part of life. It has literally nothing carrying over to how effective of a championship NXN works out to be.

FL is all we have wrote:

FL is the only championships that matters now and the forseeable future.

Which is why the guys who just finished 1st and 3rd at NCAA championships are both former NXN winners? Try to think a little, you might like it.

runn wrote:

Now, we have Nike, which depth wise, FL cannot match, and FL which takes a few of the top runners who aren't on a great team.

It bugs me that kids choose FL, but for some they see it as the "easier way to Nationals" and San Diego has nicer weather than Portland (but NOT a better course, anymore).

This could not be more wrong. We have kids giving up an automatic spot at NXN (CA state meet "qualifiers") to run the west region.

There's even runners choosing to not run NXN who qualified with their team. That's not good.

So it seems to some the west region and just a shot at nTionals is better than a guaranteed run at nationals WITH YOUR TEAM.

One might argue NXN is "dying" like many 9 years ago did when NXN came on the scene.

Really though who cares. It will never be a real national championship race until there is one through the HS system.

idiot alert wrote:

FL is all we have wrote:

FL is the only championships that matters now and the forseeable future.

Which is why the guys who just finished 1st and 3rd at NCAA championships are both former NXN winners? Try to think a little, you might like it.

Futsum: 3 time FLN qualifier, 2-time SECOND place.

Cheserek: 2 time FLN Champ!

Also, the only race between the two of them that anyone remembers is their battle at FLN, not Futsum's cakewalk over Nick Ryan, or Cheserek's (wait, did he ever win Nike? I thought he ran it as a sophomore and never returned?) loss to Verzbicas, who, by the way, also won FLN twice.

You have good arguments at your disposal. This isn't one of them.

If California would move up their State Championships by one week then Footlocker could be held one week earlier (the same weekend as the other regions) and the problem would be solved.

I meant to say that if the CA meet was moved up a week then FL WEST could also be moved up a week to align with the other regional championships. The runners in the West are forced to chose between NXN and the FL West since they are held the same day. It's easy to fix if CA will change their schedule, but holding the CA meet on Thanksgiving weekend has been a long-held tradition. And traditions die hard, especially where there is bureaucrazy involved (note: the z was intentional).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

If California would move up their State Championships by one week then Footlocker could be held one week earlier (the same weekend as the other regions) and the problem would be solved.

What if Nike only had teams. But had two different classifications schools with less than 1250 students and schools over 1250.

Let the FL stick to individual championships. Stagger them so Nike regionals go one weekend the next weekend FL regionals, Two weeks later Nike Championships, then the following week FL championship.

Nanook,

Most (all) states already have championships based on school size. It should be possible to use the winners/runners-up of those state sized based races to select teams that qualify for sized based regionals maybe 4 or 5 races each with 30 or so teams. The size based regionals (for example the CA state meet) would qualify teams for Nationals. Using the CA state races to determine qualifiers is already happening.

With only 3 races, this team post season could end the weekend before Thanksgiving and let individuals continue. With only maybe 150 teams at the big dance, teams that don't qualify for the sized based big dance, can run other meets like boarder wars or New Englands.

He's a Nike shill of the highest order - just like Limmer, Lanzalotto (who are actually directly affiliated with the NXN event) and others that bombard all of these boards telling you that Nike is the best and FL stinks. They keep telling you that FL is dead year after year after year and each November/December we have a bunch of threads about this topic. They think if they say it enough that they can will it to be so. It just goes to show the complete lack of character and intelligence of these guys.

I agree with an earlier post from this thread...I liked the Nike event for the first 5 years or so, but it is now getting pretty boring to me with the same teams making it and contending for the title every year.

You're an idiot- I coach a high school team who will likely never make it to Nationals.

I run and compete in whatever shoes the guy at my local running store recommends- Brooks, Saucony, Nike, NB.

I LIKE the team aspect of Nike.

I always felt that FL should add a team element, they're just not interested.

I gave a good reason why Nike takes the depth from FL but FL can still get the top runners who aren't on a great team.

I am allowed my opinion.

I don't call idiots like you Foot Locker shills putting down Nike.

Stop being a moron and learn to have an intelligent discussion using facts.

FL has the tradition and it's sad that we have to have two different events.

What is wring with having a team championship in a team sport?

The system is not going to change because of $$$ and I honestly don't care. Pretty much every other HS sport does not have a national championship, you just have your state competitions and that's it. You'll get ranked by magazines sure, but do you see every HS state champion team having a football tournament?

If there wants to be one, this is what it should be:

-4 regions, similar to Footlocker but possibly reorganized.

--Top 2 teams in each race qualify, plus 2 at large teams. 10 teams total. Get the bottom half of teams with 17:30 5K kids out of NXN.

--Top 10 individuals in each region not from the winning teams also qualify.

-Nationals held on Footlocker course.

--Individual championship race with the individuals. There, you have footlockers.

--Separate team race of all of the teams.