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Karma Police
Specific 800 training question 2/10/2013 8:07PM Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I've got a specific 800 training question.

Let's say a teenage runner has well-above average speed, runs efficiently, and decent aerobic conditioning. He does some limited strength training, so has a reasonable all-round program.

He can run a nice, crisp first lap with good form, and we want to make sure he can sustain it with a 2nd lap within 2-3 seconds of the first one. I want him to have the confidence to push the first lap a little but be able to bring it home, especially in the last 300.

Are there any specific sessions to help with this part of the race? That is, sustaining the fast, relaxed striding well into in the 2nd lap?

Is it solely the usual aerobic or lactic threshold conditioning, and further developing this? I'm trying to limit this due to his age.

Is it a set of say 4 x 500s or 600s at 1500 speed, to help with strength at the 70-90 second mark?

Or heaps of 800 race speed work in-season, with some sort of mix of 200s, 300s and 400s, to get him used to running relaxed at that fast speed under pressure? And if so with what recoveries?
duhhhhhhhh
RE: Specific 800 training question 2/10/2013 8:13PM - in reply to Karma Police Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
just tell him to man up and run faster
dkap
RE: Specific 800 training question 2/10/2013 8:21PM - in reply to Karma Police Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I've found the longer intervals at 1500m pace to be of little value for what you're after. I much prefer the short recovery 200's outlined by Bautista:

http://www.coacheseducation.com/endur/Coaching800-1600/index.html

They toughen the athlete to the mid-race burn, which you really need to experience at race pace.

Dan
http://www.VOQTraining.com
LeterBuck800
RE: Specific 800 training question 2/10/2013 8:33PM - in reply to Karma Police Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
lease
RE: Specific 800 training question 2/10/2013 8:34PM - in reply to Karma Police Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
His concept of the race can, by itself, sometimes help. In particular, it helps some people to think of the race as 300m-200m-300m.

Too many guys think 400/400. So they run 27/29, hear a "56" for the first 400, and think they're on 1:52 pace. No, they're on 1:55 pace--assuming that they don't slow any more in the third 200 (they will).

Instead, try "just running" the first 300, which is almost never too slow; *consciously* moving through the field in the next 200, when so many lose focus (esp. from 400 to 500m), and getting a great position; then committing to the entire last 300m, switching the brain from legs to arms if necessary.

Obviously there are all kinds of drills, in lots of different workouts, that can get a runner used to "commit" at the start of the backstraight.
__________________________________________________________

Otherwise, for the specific speed endurance that comes into play in the last 400, varied-speed repetitions (with several speed changes per rep) have been show to work best. Sprint/float drills are popular, and there are all kinds of variants available. (A good way to introduce the concept of "float" to the athletes: "Sprinting is flooring the accelerator; jogging is hitting the brake; floating is taking your foot off the accelerator, but not touching the brake--you let your momentum carry you with no effort.")

A sprint/float drill we did for 400m runners:
3 x [200 @ steady race pace; ~30sec recovery; 200m @ sprint 40/float 40/sprint 40/float 40/sprint 40; 5min recovery]
You get the idea.
Karma Police
RE: Specific 800 training question 2/10/2013 8:42PM - in reply to lease Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

lease wrote:

His concept of the race can, by itself, sometimes help. In particular, it helps some people to think of the race as 300m-200m-300m.

Too many guys think 400/400. So they run 27/29, hear a "56" for the first 400, and think they're on 1:52 pace. No, they're on 1:55 pace--assuming that they don't slow any more in the third 200 (they will).

Instead, try "just running" the first 300, which is almost never too slow; *consciously* moving through the field in the next 200, when so many lose focus (esp. from 400 to 500m), and getting a great position; then committing to the entire last 300m, switching the brain from legs to arms if necessary.




I think that's a really good point about breaking the race down into smaller sections. We're doing it more as 200/300/300 at the moment, or even a 200/400/200.

He's got a big race in September (yes I realise this is 6-7 months away, but it takes that long to get ready to run 800 at your peak), for his school, wants to shatter a long-standing record and will have to do it on his own. He's always been a sit-kicker because of his speed, so he needs to learn to take them out himself.

if he hits the 300 with anything left I will try to teach him to think how easy the quick 300s are. Get to the start of he back straight and think of it as a 300 race.
Karma Police
RE: Specific 800 training question 2/10/2013 8:46PM - in reply to lease Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

lease wrote:

A sprint/float drill we did for 400m runners:
3 x [200 @ steady race pace; ~30sec recovery; 200m @ sprint 40/float 40/sprint 40/float 40/sprint 40; 5min recovery]
You get the idea.


That first "200 @ steady race pace" - is that 400 race pace or 800 race pace?
Karma Police
RE: Specific 800 training question 2/10/2013 8:51PM - in reply to LeterBuck800 Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

LeterBuck800 wrote:

http://www.runnersworld.com/race-training/vigil-acceleration-workout

Vigil workout is pretty good.


Never seen anything like that before. Big recoveries though, is it a lot of use to someone who is already fast? The preamble suggested it was designed for someone without a big finishing kick, and that's not the issue. However, of course you have to be fit and strong enough to use that kick at the end of a race.
Karma Police
RE: Specific 800 training question 2/10/2013 9:06PM - in reply to dkap Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

dkap wrote:

I've found the longer intervals at 1500m pace to be of little value for what you're after. I much prefer the short recovery 200's outlined by Bautista:




From what age though? Or from what physical maturity age? Post-puberty I guess?

Juantorena did a lot of this sort of stuff, I think even in base period.

Also, what time of year? Start a couple of months before the peak?

He does ok with reps of 200s, 300s and 400s, total being 1.6-2km, and usually about 2 min rests.
lease
RE: Specific 800 training question 2/10/2013 9:14PM - in reply to Karma Police Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

Karma Police wrote:


lease wrote:

A sprint/float drill we did for 400m runners:
3 x [200 @ steady race pace; ~30sec recovery; 200m @ sprint 40/float 40/sprint 40/float 40/sprint 40; 5min recovery]
You get the idea.


That first "200 @ steady race pace" - is that 400 race pace or 800 race pace?

It was at 400m pace, because that particular sample drill was aimed at 400m runners. We often would have them do the very first 200 of the whole session from the blocks, and try to get an accurate time on it (to check pace judgment); for the other two "steady" 200s in the series, we'd have them go from a stand, or jog into it, and we weren't as concerned about hitting a time exactly.

Done properly for three sets, the drill can be taxing. We didn't want any staggering or loss of form, so if more than 5:00 was really needed between sets, we gave it; if more than ~30sec was needed *within* sets, we'd sometimes lengthen it.

The invariable comment from the athletes who were new to the drill was "I thought 200m sprint/float would be easier than a straight 200." They immediately learned otherwise...

By the way, by no means do speed-change reps need to be restricted to sprint/float stuff. That's just one example. Jog/stride/sprint, gradual acceleration/quick acceleration, etc., all can help. The key is to change speeds one way or another, preferably multiple times within a rep, and maintaining smooth control throughout.

[Even though speed-change reps are the best for building speed endurance, and even though the research backing that was done maybe 40+ years ago, and fairly widely disseminated...a lot of the best coaches don't like speed-change reps, because they can't get a time from them to put in their daily log!--and the best coaches tend to keep good records, which they like to have "complete." We actually especially liked speed-change stuff toward the end of a season, because the athletes *couldn't* get a time from it, and were able to focus instead on tidy form...and then were hungry for times in the meets!]
JRinaldi
RE: Specific 800 training question 2/10/2013 9:39PM - in reply to LeterBuck800 Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I think that session was borrowed from Peter Coe...credit where credit is due.

The article has a formula attached, but if you just start the first 100 at 15 sec and add 1 sec to every rep, you get pretty much the same thing without needing to calculate anything!
Karma Police
RE: Specific 800 training question 2/10/2013 9:47PM - in reply to lease Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

lease wrote:


[Even though speed-change reps are the best for building speed endurance, and even though the research backing that was done maybe 40+ years ago, and fairly widely disseminated...a lot of the best coaches don't like speed-change reps, because they can't get a time from them to put in their daily log!--and the best coaches tend to keep good records, which they like to have "complete." We actually especially liked speed-change stuff toward the end of a season, because the athletes *couldn't* get a time from it, and were able to focus instead on tidy form...and then were hungry for times in the meets!]


Yes I'm trying to get him to run more by feel than solely according to the clock. I certainly think the drill could be done by say a 200-300 firstly at 800 speed (prob 300), 30 secs, then say a 250/300 of 5 x 50/60 hard/float, with the hard being first lap 800 speed, and the float being more a sort of 1500/2km speed.

I'd be very interested to try this and see if it helps with the speed endurance.
I also might think it might make him feel like it's not as hard as a straight 6 x 300, because half the 300s are at less than 800 speed.
dkap
RE: Specific 800 training question 2/10/2013 10:09PM - in reply to Karma Police Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

Karma Police wrote:

From what age though? Or from what physical maturity age? Post-puberty I guess?


High school age and older. I don't have any experience coaching middle school or younger athletes, so I can only guess at whether or not they might respond to the workout differently.


Also, what time of year? Start a couple of months before the peak?


Primarily during the spring/summer track season(s), but it can't hurt to sprinkle it in throughout the year as long as the athlete isn't totally de-trained to that level of intensity.

Dan
Karma Police
RE: Specific 800 training question 2/10/2013 10:20PM - in reply to dkap Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

dkap wrote:


Karma Police wrote:

From what age though? Or from what physical maturity age? Post-puberty I guess?


High school age and older. I don't have any experience coaching middle school or younger athletes, so I can only guess at whether or not they might respond to the workout differently.


Also, what time of year? Start a couple of months before the peak?


Primarily during the spring/summer track season(s), but it can't hurt to sprinkle it in throughout the year as long as the athlete isn't totally de-trained to that level of intensity.

Dan


I tend to get him to do diagonals all your round, either once a week or occasionally skipping a week. They tend to be 110-120m, with about a 40sec jog recovery. This keeps the race speed in their head, so running relaxed at fast 800 speed is ingrained into their head.

So I guess chucking one of these multiple 200s sessions in every 3-4 weeks instead of diagonals isn't too much of a stretch.
Bad Wigins
RE: Specific 800 training question 2/11/2013 1:34AM - in reply to Karma Police Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
The 2nd lap should be about 1.04 to 1.1 times the first, so 3 seconds is on the even side of things even for a 50-second starter. (53=50x1.06. He might get better results with +4 or higher, particular if he's the sprinter type your description suggests.

I don't think lots of intervals or mile pace will do much. That just gets a runner used to running at mile pace, or whatever pace he can do the multiple reps at. He'll end up good at maintaining a slower pace.

There is also a very typical split pattern in fast 800's, in that the 2nd and 3rd 200's are usually about the same. Rudisha's London splits were 23.5, 25.8, 25.0, 26.6. If there's any stretch where the pace is basically the same, it's that middle 400 meters, and it makes sense to work on maintaining there, if anywhere.

I think the best way to do that is to run 600's in that exact pattern, at 800 goal pace. Sprint the first 200, and then even-split the 2nd and 3rd. It's a tough workout, but not too tough for 1 or 2 reps once a week or so.
steve red
RE: Specific 800 training question 2/11/2013 8:33AM - in reply to Karma Police Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
300-500 x 4 sets 5 recovery after 300, 3 recovery after 500

300 @ race pace, 200 float, 300 each 100 faster

1000 w/each 200 jog, run, race pace, 400 pace, sprint
SlowFatMaster
RE: Specific 800 training question 2/11/2013 11:43AM - in reply to steve red Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
steve red:

The last workout does not seem possible. If I read it correctly, the workout is 1000m continuous with the last 600m going from 800 pace to 400 pace to sprint pace.

To the OP:

Check out Marcus O'Sullivan's presentation. Some of the workouts on pages 46-49 may help your athlete.

http://www.ustfccca.org/assets/symposiums/2010/Marcus-OSullivan_Middle-Distance.pdf
Karma Police
RE: Specific 800 training question 2/11/2013 5:44PM - in reply to Bad Wigins Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

Bad Wigins wrote:

The 2nd lap should be about 1.04 to 1.1 times the first, so 3 seconds is on the even side of things even for a 50-second starter. (53=50x1.06. He might get better results with +4 or higher, particular if he's the sprinter type your description suggests.

I don't think lots of intervals or mile pace will do much. That just gets a runner used to running at mile pace, or whatever pace he can do the multiple reps at. He'll end up good at maintaining a slower pace.

There is also a very typical split pattern in fast 800's, in that the 2nd and 3rd 200's are usually about the same. Rudisha's London splits were 23.5, 25.8, 25.0, 26.6. If there's any stretch where the pace is basically the same, it's that middle 400 meters, and it makes sense to work on maintaining there, if anywhere.

I think the best way to do that is to run 600's in that exact pattern, at 800 goal pace. Sprint the first 200, and then even-split the 2nd and 3rd. It's a tough workout, but not too tough for 1 or 2 reps once a week or so.


600s at 800 goal pace? For a teenager? Agreed, that's tough even for an adult. I guess 2 reps, maybe 8-10 mins apart. 1 rep they can obviously do.

You're right in that we're aiming for the 2nd and 3rd 200s to be similar. In fact he's always had fast first and last 200s, and struggled when his last 200 is the slowest of the race. He does need to work on finishing with a decent final 200 even when really hurting. And I think it's psychological with him as much as physical.

We can look at a bigger differential between first and 2nd laps, but to date he's been someone who runs a faster time off almost an even split.
bad as naomi russell
RE: Specific 800 training question 2/11/2013 7:15PM - in reply to lease Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
when you mentioned this strategy, the first thing that came to my mind was this race by Makhloufi last summer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqBD8OVDJDc

the pure 800m guys blow him out of the water the first 200m as he is in DFL and ~15m off the lead. but 300m in he makes a huge move and passes most of the field, is in contention by the bell lap, and starts driving for home in the lead at 500m.

like you said, adrenaline and fear of "not getting out" mean the first 300m is always plenty fast (if not too fast) for most athletes. i think this race is a clear example of it being advantageous to not "get out" in an 800m as it can catch up with you later in the race.

this strategy will take a lot of discipline and patience though...might be hard to get a young runner to execute it, especially one who is more of a 400/800 type.



lease wrote:

Too many guys think 400/400. So they run 27/29, hear a "56" for the first 400, and think they're on 1:52 pace. No, they're on 1:55 pace--assuming that they don't slow any more in the third 200 (they will).

Instead, try "just running" the first 300, which is almost never too slow; *consciously* moving through the field in the next 200, when so many lose focus (esp. from 400 to 500m), and getting a great position; then committing to the entire last 300m, switching the brain from legs to arms if necessary.


bad as naomi russell
RE: Specific 800 training question 2/11/2013 7:23PM - in reply to Bad Wigins Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
i really like this workout, will definitely give it a shot this spring/summer. lots of "traditional" workouts mentioned for 800m involve sprint/float stuff to work on changing gears, or efforts where you progressively run faster splits...none of which actually happen in an 800m race as you point out. it's all about staying relaxed and delaying a major deacceleration as long as possible (or at least until 600m when you go for broke to the line).


Bad Wigins wrote:
I think the best way to do that is to run 600's in that exact pattern, at 800 goal pace. Sprint the first 200, and then even-split the 2nd and 3rd. It's a tough workout, but not too tough for 1 or 2 reps once a week or so.
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