LateRunnerPhil - Tinman Training Through Summer to 5k PR in Sep (Goal ~15:30)

Props to you for coming back on here to admit you failed to hit your goal. Now turn the page.

Autoblow dot com wrote:

Props to you for coming back on here to admit you failed to hit your goal. Now turn the page.

The important thing is to learn from it - where did it go wrong? Was it the training system I used? Did I implement it wrong? How fast would I have got had I taken up coach JS offer for free coaching? Did I do too much hard cross-training in the pool? Did having bad sleep schedules and nutrition play a big role? Was the goal - from 16:10 5k, to 15:30-15:45 in 12 months too big of a jump?

The thing is, things are just starting to look better, I joined a team now with coaches, joined a good gym and am lot less stressed out about running and improving. Sometimes best things, like breakthrough races or suddenly much faster paces on training runs/workouts happen when least expected.

Nice race Phil. I will say that I don't think a 9:17 converts very well to a sub 16 5k. Daniels has it as 16:07 which I suspect is still a bit ambitious given you seem to trend towards the speed side of the spectrum.

I also think you should move to a 10 day cycle with 2 easy days between workouts and a rest day. This worked well for me in my last cycle and, honestly, we seem like pretty similar runners. Why not give it a try?

Either way, seems like you have successfully pressed the reset button. Best of luck to you.

You were training very hard through injuries, and often battling stomach issues as a result of a bad diet. I'd read some of the report you'd give and they'd be crazy. You'd feel you weren't eating enough so you'd eat 7,000 calories in a day. Or you'd have a left leg injury, so you'd change your stride to compensate with more pressure on the right. The truth is pushing yourself through these issues isn't helpful and just results in under-performance and stop-start training with little progression. Happy you have found a moderate and sustainable path forward.

highhoppingworm wrote:

Nice race Phil. I will say that I don't think a 9:17 converts very well to a sub 16 5k. Daniels has it as 16:07 which I suspect is still a bit ambitious given you seem to trend towards the speed side of the spectrum.

I also think you should move to a 10 day cycle with 2 easy days between workouts and a rest day. This worked well for me in my last cycle and, honestly, we seem like pretty similar runners. Why not give it a try?

Either way, seems like you have successfully pressed the reset button. Best of luck to you.

The VDOT calculator indeed suggests a slower time for a 5k, but with my splits - 3:12-3:06-2:59 we can assume that the 3k time isn't the absolute maximum physiologically, and I could have been faster with a quicker start.

I struggled during the 16:27 5k last week a lot (and even lost by 8s), but feel like this 5k and the 3k now will make me 30s faster.

I don't think that my endurance is holding me back much anymore, my times from 800-10000 should be fairly balanced now. I mostly focused on mileage and threshold with the Tinman training. So I will go for the sub 16, since it's the last race for a long time I don't need to hold back anything.

The 9-day schedule has two problems, one is I would feel like I'm not doing enough with always 2 easy days between workouts/long runs, and it's much harder to schedule (especially since I'm also doing strength training and some group workouts and runs with my club). I think living in a flat area and removing hills from distance runs already makes a good difference, and better nutrition. Many elites/pros use a Tue/Thu/Sat schedule even, with 2-3 workouts (+Sunday LR) so I should be able to do 2.

Plan:

10/1 - 60 min

10/2 - 60 min + ST

10/3 - 6k in 3:25/k + 6x200

10/4 - 90 min

10/5 - 60 min + ST

10/6 - 4x1000 in 3:20/k & 3x400 in 72-66-60

10/7 - 60 min

10/8 - 45 min + 3x200

10/9 - 35 min + 6x100

10/10 - 5k Race - Sub 16, Big PR

+60-90 min strength/core/crossfit sessions on most days.

Maybe put in a session at goal race pace some time over the next few days? Except for a handful of short repeats, you have nothing scheduled at 3:12 / km pace or quicker. Also make sure the last few days before the race are not too much for you to be fresh.

The last opportunity for your mitochondria to adapt is by having a tough workout 10 days in advance. So I would not do any taxing workouts anymore. Just do the minimum to stay in shape and be totally rested. 5 days out do 10x400m at goal pace or slightly faster. Good luck on the sub16, you can do it!

Given your current plan, I would not do the planned workout 4 days in advance, but simply do 10, or better since you are not 5 but just 4 days before race day, just 8x400m in 74-76 seconds per lap with 200m jogging break.

Honestly, 6k in 3:25/k + 6x200 is also asking for trouble. If you want to run 10 seconds faster on race day, do this workout slower, and with less volume.

You have worked so hard this year. It is time for you to take it easy and reap the benefits on 10/10/20. After that, it is time to evaluate, not earlier. Go for this plot twist!

Phil, maybe working with a coach who could give you a training plan would help keep you in check and take the pressure off. You also might learn something; maybe they have a slightly different approach that you wouldn't have normally tried. Not advocating JS here; there are lots of experienced coaches who could help.

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

The important thing is to learn from it - where did it go wrong? Was it the training system I used? Did I implement it wrong? How fast would I have got had I taken up coach JS offer for free coaching? .

I see this as an opportunity to offer up my own coaching availability. We follow somewhat similar systems of training and I think that with my help you could add a little stability/organization/restraint that you've often lacked in the past. Let me know,

Bishop hill wrote:

a different approach wrote:

Phil, maybe working with a coach who could give you a training plan would help keep you in check and take the pressure off. You also might learn something; maybe they have a slightly different approach that you wouldn't have normally tried. Not advocating JS here; there are lots of experienced coaches who could help.

A lot of experienced coaches, but no one as the magic JS! Phil can just hire him. Far from as expensive as Tinman.

Why not advocate JS here ? Have you followed his coaching of Canefis at another thread here?

Really impressing I say.Phil will never know how fast he could have been by now with JS as his coach.

Jan, yet another handle

For 1 year could not shaved 6 sec in pace??

Canefis wrote:

For 1 year could not shaved 6 sec in pace??

So far no, 0 improvement in 5k time over 12 months training. Running progression isn't gradual, but I agree since this was my 3rd year of running I should have been able to improve a bit.

There were some training breaks due to injuries/sickness but overall yearly mileage is still very good and had a good training camp.

One reason is I wasn't in a very fast race yet, and I also haven't had a big peak since many races were cancelled due to COVID. But this shouldn't be an excuse, now I finally got some harder efforts in and maybe I can do something next week in the season-closing 5k. If I'm still slow (unable to break 16), I really need to reevaluate my training. But since I joined a club now and will work on form, I will probably improve anyway. But we still have to question the training - I should have improved just by doing a good year of training.

One thing I noticed compared to when I was actually training too hard (more VO2MAX/5k paced k's instead of CV/threshold) that I'm weaker anaerobically now. One guy said in the beginning maybe the actual Tinman training won't work as well as the harder intervals for me, maybe he was right. I feel a bit fitter now (slightly better threshold) but lack lactate tolerance/pushing somehow like I was able to do last year.

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

Canefis wrote:

For 1 year could not shaved 6 sec in pace??

I feel a bit fitter now (slightly better threshold) but lack lactate tolerance/pushing somehow like I was able to do last year.

Lactate tolerance/pushing? Phil this is wrong thinking. What you should be doing is improving efficiency, not trying to hurt yourself more. You will improve efficiency by hurting yourself less, not more. You overdo everything. You have to get out of this self abusive mindset.

Why don't you ask Tinman himself? He will tell you the same thing.

train don't strain wrote:

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

I feel a bit fitter now (slightly better threshold) but lack lactate tolerance/pushing somehow like I was able to do last year.

Lactate tolerance/pushing? Phil this is wrong thinking. What you should be doing is improving efficiency, not trying to hurt yourself more. You will improve efficiency by hurting yourself less, not more. You overdo everything. You have to get out of this self abusive mindset.

Why don't you ask Tinman himself? He will tell you the same thing.

I can just confirm that it's not about lactate tolerance /pushing. Lactate isn`t the enemy to defeat. Lactate is the runners best friend if the runner/coach knows to best handle it. What Phil must do when it comes to lactate threshold training is to run his for the moment best pace and stay with that until the supercompensation inserts and a new level occurs. Phil, you must train smart, don't strain and overdo things.Just do what's enough to improve.

Did you analyze your training, what is wrong?:

1) Lack of muscles or lack of heart capacity (heart volume+capillaries+economy+lungs)

2) Do you have enough base speed for run 03:06 min/km (15:30 PR 5K) pace?:

a) yes, how many minutes can you hold this pace?

b) yes, what is happen when you cannot hold pace more than xx minutes?:

- heart rate to high and you have lack of breezing?

- legs are very pain and you slow down?

- legs are fresh, heart rate low, you fill good but cannot keep pace?

- all together breezing, heart rate and legs pain?

Canefis wrote:

Did you analyze your training, what is wrong?:

1) Lack of muscles or lack of heart capacity (heart volume+capillaries+economy+lungs)

2) Do you have enough base speed for run 03:06 min/km (15:30 PR 5K) pace?:

a) yes, how many minutes can you hold this pace?

b) yes, what is happen when you cannot hold pace more than xx minutes?:

- heart rate to high and you have lack of breezing?

- legs are very pain and you slow down?

- legs are fresh, heart rate low, you fill good but cannot keep pace?

- all together breezing, heart rate and legs pain?

I don't know, thinking about doing a lactate threshold test again. My last values were 3:34/k at 4 mmol and 4:02/k at 2 mmol, and I ran a 16:10 5k off that by running extremely hard, holding on to a pack (3:20/k pace) and then passing 10 runners at the end with a 60 last 400.

I'm strong on short 5-30s hill reps and can run 30s 200s with ease/without much breathing. So I think the legs have enough power, and my heart is very strong too.

My problem is after like 400-500m at 3:10-3:15/k my breathing gets very heavy. I don't feel much if any pain during races right now but struggle with the air. This is the same in the 1500 and 3000. The next days the throat is sore, and in extreme cases, like the 16:10 5k last year or 16:18 solo track 5k this year I get sick after.

The other problem is I'm not relaxed enough in my upper body, and move the arms heavily (like a sprinter) and rotate shoulders too much. Since I always forced the paces and trained very hard, I never learned to really cruise or run fast and relaxed.

Think about it that way - training too hard all the time obviously helped me get very strong muscles, but I was never at the right intensities to develop aerobically and become a smooth, efficient, economic runner like for example Ingebrigtsen. There is a reason he trains with HR and often lactate values. Training very hard to push even harder worked for me last year since I got a lot out of the body, but it never made me fitter, and to reach a higher level I need to get fitter/better thresholds if it's still possible genetically (which it should, considering how fast I improved in my first 12-18 months).

the breathing thing is fairly normal for some. I don't know how much affect it has. I run with a guy who breathes heavy for his entire run, but never slows.

the other day, we did 7:15 pace for 6 miles, which is fairly conversational for me, though a good effort. He was huffing and puffing from the first 1/4 mile. but kept with me the whole time. I think I was at something like M pace, while he was honestly probably right about a true 10k pace.

point is, i think it is fairly normal for some people to have heavy breathing throughout the entirety of a 5k/10k effort.

would love to hear other people's takes on this.