LateRunnerPhil - Tinman Training Through Summer to 5k PR in Sep (Goal ~15:30)

The heck are u in love with tinman?

Just do long intervals, tempo and short intarvals for weeks and some sprinting thanfew hard workouts and anyone can run close to mid 14 for 5k.it isnt rocket science just hard work. You should t have to worry aboz anarobic energy and too fast traning paces its bulls. Go hard on workouts and if you tired take few days off or easy thats all.

After the 6 weeks off, I started back into training on January 1 this year. Lots of swimming as cross-training, and 3 weeks of easy running. Then I started with CV workouts and tempo runs once a week (and an easy, hilly long run). Trained one week in Central Park NYC which was a nice change.

My CV pace was once again set too aggressive, around 3:25. My notes say "strong legs but heavy breathing", so it's likely to be my 5k pace. I did a 10k TT during the time and only managed 3:38/k, but it was sunny, a bit windy and not a totally flat course (~2% gradient). Also felt that I couldn't run hard since I haven't done anything hard recently. I think I could have run around 3:30-3:32/k in an ideal track/road race.

My mileage increased a lot, averaging 80-85 mpw for consecutive months and peaking with a 95 mile week during training camp in Portugal which went quite well apart from destroyed hamstrings the last days due to randomly starting strength training with heavy deadlifts (2 weeks there). My strengths, short stuff, still shows on hill reps and strides were I'm very fast. Strides are another things I changed, from running 400m pace to now ~3k pace as 10x20on,40off on soft surfaces.

I started doing workouts on asphalt, especially weekly 10-12k tempo runs in around 3:40/k, on a slight downhill course sometimes taking advantage of wind too (followed by hill sprints). These felt easy/Tinman-Tempo'ish, but since I've only run on soft surfaces previously caused some leg fatigue and shin splints after which I decided to take 5 full days off (after training hard and uninterrupted for 4 months).

Now I'm in my first week back, and will start my build-up for goal races in September. Two 5k's are already planned (assuming they take place), and my goal times are in the 15:30-15:45 range, which would be a great (hopefully realistic) improvement.

I have no idea about my current shape, but will run time-trials and virtual races to set my CV and other training paces. In two weeks from now on, I plan to do a 7k TT on the track with goal pace of 3:20/k which will be very difficult.

For my training system, I will use Tinman again, but hopefully with better/correct paces this time. My paces won't be much different than last year, but hopefully more aerobic. As FT runner, I NEED lots of races/hard workouts to get in shape, which will be done in August (hopefully no heat summer). So after already spending 4 months on base building, I will now spend 3 more months trying to get my 10k time down to 3:20/k, and my 3k time to 3:00/k, which should allow me to race a 5k in my desired target range.

Current plan (might replace/change some workouts, also doing them on track on a good day weather-wise (wind, temperature) and as Fartlek on bad days) for the next months:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ELGE4e6KmHF1hGLRuuh0PcXQUd9cyDN2gmYpEUhqb_8/edit?usp=sharing

Paces will be changed/adjusted after time-trials, like a 2k TT for aerobic power or 7k TT for stamina. Plan is based on Tinman's Finalsurge 5k/10k plan which I purchased for $50, but adjusted to my performance level (starting right away with higher mileage/longer runs). Doubles will also be done a bit later, in the form of cross-training or 20-30 min runs.

dark green=long run, green=easy, yellow=tinman tempo, orange=cv or threshold or easy workout, red=vo2max or TT or race

As someone who is now 32 and started running training at 30 with a 5k PR of over 20 min, let's find out what's still possible as "late-bloomers"!

Paralysis by analysis

pipedre wrote:

The heck are u in love with tinman?.

Yes, he is absolutely in love with Tinman.

Good luck. Keep us updated.

Geeez what a thread ,the other dbag is here too!

Majik wizzzzzard fake kenyans , athete of mine just run58min i can prove it he is my friend on facebook its majik.

Honestly i think it would be great if you to would team up together, just write all over the whole messeage board with your two sentences :i love tinman and its majik

I am a Tinman fan. Some of his old message board posts don't come off the best but his advice was usually good. I like his Tinman tempo pace and CV pace, for me they work well.

My question is how were you always doing the wrong paces? His calculator gives you the paces for everything.

Phil, what if you actually use Tinman training this time but don’t improve? What if you were better on the nonTinman training you did before?

Interesting Phil. How much faster than Tinman prescribed paces were you running? At 44 , 6’2” and 185lbs, I’ve gone from 21min for 5k to 18:13 in 6 months off of Tinman-ish training. What I’m finding is that as my PR’s and paces reset to train at a new level of fitness, it’s getting harder to hit my paces...enough so that my last rep of 4x1 mile can feel a little race like.? I try to keep that in mind early in the workout.

peekay wrote:

Phil, what if you actually use Tinman training this time but don’t improve? What if you were better on the nonTinman training you did before?

I've only been running for 2.5 years, got plenty of improvement left. A 16:15 5k isn't fast, even in my age group.

The thing about Tinman training is you don't concern yourself with trying to rush fitness as fast as possible. CV and threshold takes some time to work and show results, but it's better in the long term. My training will get more intensity in the 6-12 weeks out from peak competition, but the stamina component will always be there.

Runtodafridge wrote:

Interesting Phil. How much faster than Tinman prescribed paces were you running? At 44 , 6’2” and 185lbs, I’ve gone from 21min for 5k to 18:13 in 6 months off of Tinman-ish training. What I’m finding is that as my PR’s and paces reset to train at a new level of fitness, it’s getting harder to hit my paces...enough so that my last rep of 4x1 mile can feel a little race like.? I try to keep that in mind early in the workout.

4x1 Mile @threshold should be quite easy if run at the appropriate pace. It's likely you are using your 5k PR of 18:13 to set your threshold pace, which you might not be in shape in/be able to run during the days you did your workouts. That PR gives a threshold pace of 6:20-6:30/mi for your level. If you think you could only run a 18:40 5k on that day in these conditions, you have to derive your threshold pace from that. Also for these longer intervals, rest should be 2 min or 400m. My recommendation is stick to 1000's at CV if the longer stuff becomes taxing.

I don't think I have ever been in better than 3:32-3:35 10k shape, but did my "CV intervals" anywhere from 3:17 to 3:25. Without taper and not in the fastest shoes, it often was right around 5k effort. Went from 3:45/k to 3:20/k doing that, would take 1 week off getting sick or season break and start right again at 3:45/k, which was frustrating. Quick improvements, but using so much anaerobic energy that it was not a permanent improvement. I mostly improved my ability to produce, use, AND tolerate very high levels of lactate and acidosis instead of getting better stamina-wise. I could never run tempos at the right paces or hold a strong pace in a race. Now it's gonna take me a long time of real CV training to reverse that training mistake and make my body function properly again.

Couple of questions: How do you periodise your training? What changes when you move closer to your target races?

What rest do you take for your 1k reps or 1 mile reps?

Everyone would love to think that performance improvements were just that easy. As a high schooler many years ago a steady dose of 40 miles a week with a few good quality sessions was all that I needed to run 15:13 on the track for 5k.

Fast forward 35 years and as a coach this time is easily achievable with once again a steady dose of 40-50 miles with a few good workouts. I had a young athlete come to me in August after he finished next to last in the Aussie U20 8k XC final in around 31 minutes. After adjusting his training his last race before everything shut down was 15:37. Now he has talent and please remember how easy it is to run the times you strive for ultimately depend on your talent as an athlete.

Based on what you have posted you should be able to achieve your goal. Tinman, Daniels oh they sound so cliche. My suggestion is to do the training you enjoy focussing on your aerobic development. Back in 1986 I went to a private coach and to this day the most important workout he gave me was 5x3 minutes with 90 seconds rest. I ran this on an apartment complex cinder fitness track. Mark a line and go back and forth. Sounds simple. Another session was 12-14 x30 seconds with 30 seconds rest on a golf course. Other than that everything else was easy running. So what I am trying to say is keep it simple, get in the right race and keep enjoying your training. You are the only one who really cares how fast you run and I hope that you achieve your goals.

Now there are many trolls on this site but my career stands up pretty well so take what you want.

Good luck to you. Maybe take up coaching. Private coaching is a good business and you never know when you get a chance to work with someone special.

The PR is less than a month old so is current. I’ve been running the miles at (CV 6:02-6:10) with 1 min rest....which has been easy up until now. It doesn’t help that my course is also very hilly. Maybe I should stick to flatter section at this point.

5x3 min with 90s rest - kinda sounds familiar to me (Tinman prescribes exactly that workout at CV pace). Also 12-14x30on, 30off is something he has prescribed in the past. That's a typical session he prescribes in a "down week" for advanced athletes. Not a real workout with lots of volume, but relaxed, speedy running. No wonder you enjoyed these workouts and they were effective.

I was not talented. I never broke 6 min mile when I ran for 1-2 years in middle school. Other kids (even girls) were running around 5:30 min miles at my age back (12 years) then. The fastest local runner I have ever seen ran a 4:45 mile at 12 years old, not much slower than the WR but he looked like 15 and never got fast despite his talent (peaked at 3:55 in the 1500/8:34, hopefully Skandera won't have the same fate at least he still looks like his age).

Sure, I had crazy speed on 200m-400m as kid, often doing workouts with much faster runners but as soon as there was something long like a mile race or 8 mile bike ride I would break down. There are (aerobic!) talents that can run very long at strong pace without much training, same with cycling.

But my unique situation also allows me to improve with the RIGHT training. It's easy for me to run reps too fast and miss the stimulus and end up improving the wrong system. I have lots of Type 2a fibers (fast twitch intermediate) that are highly malleable and I can pull either to the aerobic or anaerobic side with training. My progression looks like I was fast on low mileage/without doing much, which couldn't be further from the truth. For many years, I did 1 hour swims and regular 2-3 hour bike rides, sometimes training camps with 20 hours of riding in a week. While building mileage, cross-training was not just swimming or riding for 30 minutes but a solo 1.5h ride at 22 mph average, a 3h long ride or some segments/hill reps/sprints. The running was just the fine-tuning my leg muscles needed to not die anymore during races, which happened when I raced 5k's just off cycling/swimming with no running at all.

Adifan wrote:

Couple of questions: How do you periodise your training? What changes when you move closer to your target races?

What rest do you take for your 1k reps or 1 mile reps?

Rest according to Tinman is easy - 7x1k @CV, 200m jog rest or 5x1 Mile @ threshold, 400m jog rest. Alternatively you can do 7x3 min on, 1 min off on trails or 5x5 minutes on, 2 minutes off.

Periodization is easy -

12 weeks - mostly CV/threshold, lots of tempos, with only spices of faster running/VO2MAX and some TT's

6 weeks - less tempos, faster tempos (threshold pace instead of Tinman Tempo pace), adding 1-2 faster reps at the end of CV workouts, more/longer VO2MAX sessions, like 4x800@VO2, 4x200@800, 3k @tempo/threshold

6 weeks - race phase, no more hard VO2MAX workouts, 2-3 tune-up races, more time-trials, more recovery.

Tinman once quoted a famous coach - how many races should an athlete do all-out during a season? He said: "Think about a glass of water. Every time you race all-out, 1/4th of the water is gone. Make sure your athletes only race max 4x a season all-out!"

Now recreational runners/most of us, 3 all-out races are probably plenty. That's what I will do.

Where did you have your muscle biopsy done?

TinRunnerShill wrote:

Where did you have your muscle biopsy done?

Came here to ask this as well as I am interested in getting one done.

TinRunnerShill wrote:

Where did you have your muscle biopsy done?

Do you know how expensive and painful these are? I don't care about the pain (I refuse local anesthesia), but paying $1k-$3k and needing some rest days afterwards is a serious investment when there are other ways to find out/guess it.

Magness in his great book "Science of Running" listed many methods to find out if you are more ST or FT for your event.

Get on the track with other people with the 10k PR (for me, ~35-35:30 min guys). Run a few 100s with full recovery. Some will be significantly faster/slower than others.

Look at races. Who can destroy the others (runners of similar ability in a distance race) during the last 100-200m? FT guys are struggling to hold on for the entire race but often have just enough left for a last, devastating kick at the end to win the race. Championship races are a great example for that. ST guys like Salazar, Ryan Hall, Ingebrigtsen, or Paula Radcliffe won't be able to win international championships in track races. They realize they need to run away from the field at one point. If they can't do that, they are toast.

Standing broad jump, single leg hop test, all are indicative of muscle fiber ratio.

Look at your own PR's from 400-10k and compare them with IAAF tables or Jack Daniels predictions. Are you stronger on the shorter races or on the longer ones?

Lactate testing. A ST monster might only be able to produce 8 mmol after an all-out 400 (which would also be slow, compared to his 5k/10k race performances). That's very low. A FT runner can probably reach 17+ mmol after a hard effort, and the 400 would be much faster.

I agree that it's not always black and white, and being underdeveloped aerobically also has big influence.