Uninsured Americans to pay $42k-$75k for Covid care. Insured to pay a portion of $22k-$38k (IF in network). Canadians pay $0.00

A few things:

1. The U.S. spends more on healthcare largely because we are wealthier. Control for this, and most of the discrepancies disappear.

2. Based on the experience of Obamacare, it is unlikely universal healthcare will pass. The benefits of the current system are heavily skewed to those with electoral power... I.e. the elderly/boomers and the senators from the states they live in (and even these popular programs are set up as intergenerational ponzi schemes).

3. The U.S. system is optimized for the upper middle class & wealthy (I.e. It is rationed by wealth). There are all sorts of tax loopholes for us. I get ~$8k tax free worth of premium payments each year from my employer. I’ve had HSA accounts in the past with tax free employer contributions, tax free growth etc. The wealthy can itemize deductions. Universal healthcare systems optimize for the median citizen, so for people like me it’ll feel like a tax increase (even if it is a wash, since my salary compensation would go up since the employer no longer pays) with lower quality care.

And yet life expectancy is higher in Canada both for men and women. Weird that.

bluuumpkin wrote:

USA HEALTHCARE >>> CANADIAN HEALTHCARE

Having lived significant time in both systems can confirm, that said USA care would be worse if I didn't have insurance.

Will say that since Obamacare there has been decline in the USA system but its still much better than Canada especially for chronic or non-urgent issues. Case in point stress fracture diagnosis, had it confirmed with MRI and specialist in the USA in 3 days from call to Doctors office. In Canada took 6 weeks, what's even the point? You can say oh what does competitive running matter, but in USA you can make better decisions on your rehab, not so good in Canada.

My brother went 10 years with ankle issue to get operation in Canada from Basketball injury spent 10 years not being able run mileage. He could walk and bike and run a little, in Canada that was good enough to be on the low priority list.

realist1 wrote:

Canadian families pay almost 12,000.00 per year in taxes for healthcare...crappy healthcare.

How much does the average American household pay on health insurance, doctors visits, prescriptions etc?

Canadian are on average both healthier and live longer than Americans.

Also do you have a link for that figure?

He could have gone private though, so your post makes no sense.

Most Americans requiring significant Covid care have Medicare and will pay little out of pocket.

Anyone who didn't realize just how bad this system was before this should realize it now. And even in the city where we have perhaps the best doctors and technology in the entire country, the survival rate is far lower than in Germany and other countries. We'll bankrupt hundreds of thousands, possibly millions, just in the process of their treatment.

Claim #1 is absolutely false. Relative to GDP, the U.S. spends a ridiculously large amount of money on health care. Norway (spending 62% of the American total), Switzerland (80%), Ireland (about 58%) and Luxembourg (about 63%) have higher per capita GDP and far lower health care spending. The U.S. in this comparison is at over $10k per person per year, while the highest of those is around $8k and most other wealthy countries between $4k and $5k per year.https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/health-spending-u-s-compare-countries/#item-relative-size-wealth-u-s-spends-disproportionate-amount-health

ewdgergaa wrote:

Universal healthcare is a deadly evil that costs millions of Canadians their health and lives when their government cannot provide treatment advanced enough to help them.

If this is true then why do most other western countries with universal healthcare have longer life expectancies than the U.S.?

realist1 wrote:

Canadian families pay almost 12,000.00 per year in taxes for healthcare...crappy healthcare.

Canadian here. I once nearly died of a collapse lung at 15. I was in ICU for 10 days and the cost was about $150,000. My parents paid absolutely nothing and never saw a dollar of healthcare taxation. Nice boldfaced lie. At worst, some provinces like BC have healthcare premiums that amount to maybe $1000/year per family and even then you won't lose coverage if you don't pay.

Its literally illegal to have private insurance in Canada, ever tried to pay for surgery out of pocket?

SalmonRice wrote:

realist1 wrote:

Canadian families pay almost 12,000.00 per year in taxes for healthcare...crappy healthcare.

Canadian here. I once nearly died of a collapse lung at 15. I was in ICU for 10 days and the cost was about $150,000. My parents paid absolutely nothing and never saw a dollar of healthcare taxation. Nice boldfaced lie. At worst, some provinces like BC have healthcare premiums that amount to maybe $1000/year per family and even then you won't lose coverage if you don't pay.

You do realize the Canadian tax bill is much higher than typical American one....

uh no? wrote:

SalmonRice wrote:

Canadian here. I once nearly died of a collapse lung at 15. I was in ICU for 10 days and the cost was about $150,000. My parents paid absolutely nothing and never saw a dollar of healthcare taxation. Nice boldfaced lie. At worst, some provinces like BC have healthcare premiums that amount to maybe $1000/year per family and even then you won't lose coverage if you don't pay.

You do realize the Canadian tax bill is much higher than typical American one....

Canadians pay less federal tax across all brackets.

Universal healthcare bad, virus ok! wrote:

America pays 18% of its GDP annually on healthcare for atrocious results and what amounts to theft. Universal healthcare countries pay just 8-10% annually and take care of their people with something called “public safety”.

The takeaway = Yuh git wit yuh pay for. In America that means paying more and getting much less. Work hard, save, then lose it all because someone to scared to go to the hospital because of cost got you sick.

How did for-profit deathcare work out for America during coronavirus?

Reality is smacking America in the face yet again. Who cares about the Common Good when you can waste your money for the ability to hate the other side. That’s what you’re actually paying for, and that’s it, while both parties rob you blind.

www.cnbc.com/2020/04/01/covid-19-hospital-bills-could-cost-uninsured-americans-up-to-75000.html

What is 30% of 60 to 70 K per year? About 20,000 dollars per year by my math. That's the price of "Free" healthcare for a family of four in a western nation with socialized healthcare.

The icing on the cake is when a payment board(IPAB) under Obama care can deny reimbursement of your treatment when you are elderly, even after you've paid into a government system since you were a teenager; like paying off your mortgage when you retire and having the government take away your house and give it to a younger family.

I guess doing what I want with my body only applies to selling arms, legs and hearts.

Free, my ass, you dumb-asses. Why do you think China and Italy have fared so poorly during this most recent and past flu virus outbreaks?

ewdgergaa wrote:

Universal healthcare is a deadly evil that costs millions of Canadians their health and lives when their government cannot provide treatment advanced enough to help them.

Does it, though?

Ignoring your hyperbole given that Canada only experiences around 250,000 deaths per year from all causes:

The US trails behind Canada in life expectancy and is roughly equal in perceived quality of health while spending double what Canada does per capita on health care.

Society (at large) has a misconception of what modern medicine can achieve. More tests, more medicine, and more surgery does not necessarily lead to better health outcomes.

Health outcomes are better in universal healthcare countries while paying much less. No Universal Healthcare countries have switched to America's system. When that starts, then we can start to question the differences. America is the pariah.

Canadians also pay less for better outcomes. They pay zero for covid19 treatment but get $1400 USD monthly for 4 months if they lost income. America gets MAYBE up to $1200, ONE TIME.

Other bits..

Claim: "Canada's healthcare system is overwhelmed even in normal times"

Reality: Canada pays less for better outcomes. That's why Canada hasn't changed to America's system.

Claim: "a portion of $x could still be really cheap. Most would probably hit their max out of pocket"

Reality: Is a $3000-8000 max out of pocket really cheap compared to paying $0 in Canada. And What about the uninsured. What about out of network. Covid19 treatment in America is just more robbery at the lowest moral time possible.

Claim: "Universal healthcare is a deadly evil that costs millions of Canadians their health and lives"

Reality: You are talking about America, not universal healthcare countries. 68,000 Americans die annually from lack of health insurance. The only country on earth willfully killing its own citizens is America.

dailykos.com/stories/2020/2/17/1919887/-Yale-Study-Medicare-for-All-saves-450-Billion-and-68-000-Lives-Annually

Claim: "Also waiting one year for an MRI sucks"

Reality: I have National insurance (universal healthcare). Same day MRI. I just walk in, no appointment, tell doc what happened, they write the order, and I go. It's a short walk downstairs to all the tech machines. I've waited 1 hour max. Same for x-rays, ct scans, blood work. And that's with a waiting area packed with old people every morning. Confirmed multiple times for ski accident and cycling accident injuries to the same, right shoulder. Everytime is just as fast and easy.

Claim: "Canadian families pay $12,000 year in taxes for healthcare"

Reality: One average American pays $10,489 in personal taxes. That's ONE PERSON, not an entire family. Additionally, an American family averaged paying $28,000 for healthcare in 2018. For that, they get worse healthcare outcomes and worse pandemic outcomes than Canada.

Claim: "Wealthy Canadians go to America for healthcare"

Reality: No they don't. They have private insurance in Canada and they stay in Canada. It's the same where I live. The public sector safety net is universal healthcare and that's the default that protects everyone, and to prevent an American system from ever taking hold here. People can get private insurance if they choose in most universal healthcare countries.

Claim: "Universal healthcare systems optimize for the median citizen"

Reality: They optimize for every citizen. They have better healthcare as a result.

Claim: "The US spends more on Healthcare largely because we are wealthier"

Reality: Then the rich in America who skew the GDP should be the ones paying more, not the 99% of you making much less. America is not wealthier. Only the top Americans are wealthier. Know your economic class. You are not represented accurately by America's GDP wealth. America spending 18% of GDP annually on healthcare is MORE than 8-10% that universal healthcare countries spend. More = higher. You pay more because you're stupid. You are stupid because both parties are against universal healthcare and, together, have brainwashed America. Leave America. Travel. It's a big, amazing world.

Claim: "Stress fracture diagnosis, had it confirmed with MRI and specialist in the USA in 3 days from call to doctors office"

Reality: Sounds about right. You are getting ripped off! For my shoulder surgery, in the Universal Healthcare country where I live, I walked in same day, off the street, no appointment or calls needed, had MRI and x-rays, and confirmed rotator cuff tears with an orthopedist. SAME DAY. For this level of expediency, I've paid $56-110 every month for 9 years, during unemployment too. I can never lose healthcare here. No deductibles. They don't exist here. You are getting robbed for inferior healthcare outcomes across the board.

Claim: "My brother's uncle's neighbor waited 10 years for help...." Bleah, bleah, bleah

Reality: Because they were never serious about using the universal healthcare provided and it was never really important to them anyway. That's their fault, not the system. I had an injury in the universal healthcare country I live in and had arthroscopic shoulder surgery a week later. I was actually injured and it was my responsibility to get the care I needed.

Claim: "Most Americans requiring significant covid care will be covered by Medicare."

Reality: All citizens in Universal healthcare countries are covered. When you get your bill, let us know how much it is. You can't use your dad's Medicare. fyi

Despite all of this, you fail to realize that the US is MILES ahead of any other country in terms of medical research. All these cures that Canada happens to implement well are developed in the US. 40% of biomedical research journals published in 2009 came from the US. If the US were to use medicare for all, there would be little to no incentive for biomedical research companies to make cures at all. Why should I make a new cure for a disease if I'll get paid horseshit in return? Paying $20K for a cure is better than living in a world where the cure doesn't even exist. Source:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/matthewherper/2011/03/23/the-most-innovative-countries-in-biology-and-medicine/#60d872b81a71

Also, your anecdotes are of your value. People who live in other Canadian provinces experience different outcomes than you. Not every Canadian is going to be as lucky as you.

I meant to write "your anecdotes are of no value" in the last bit

And how did all that research turn out for America's covid19 disaster. Uh huh.

And how did that research give America the worst healthcare in the developed world. Right.

Now,

I don't live in Canada, though, as noted by the fact checking Canadians posting here (thank you), and in healthcare standings every year, healthcare in Canada is better. In fact, there are many countries with superior, universal healthcare. Just open up a map. Do some exploring about the world. You'll be amazed.

www.newsweek.com/united-states-health-care-rated-worst-637114%3famp=1