I can run 10 miles at 6;40 but cant run a sub 5 mile. How do i train for a fast 5k

all out 200 is 30 flat, maybe could go just sub 30. All out 400 is roughly 64-65

Right now I think is the perfect time to work on your weaknesses which are your speed and physical strength. If you start next week and go until the first week of June, that is 7 weeks to work on getting faster and stronger. Then you can take a break if needed at the first of June and that will give you 20-22 weeks until the end of XC.

This could be something very simple you could add to your running that could serve as a double day. 10 min WU, Drills, 6x200 in 30-32 with 4-5 minutes walking rest, 10 min CD. For most on this board that will seem like too much rest, but one of the main problems I believe you are having right now is being comfortable running fast. The extra rest allows for you to do that. If you don't have a track, Google Earth it on the roads. If it is slightly downhill, even better!

Another thing, if you are struggling to break 30 seconds for a 200 and can only run 64-65 that means either you are completely slow twitch or you are physically weak. What can you squat and what can you deadlift? If you are struggling to lift your body weight or even 1.5 times your body weight for these lifts, then that is an area you need to work on addressing. Physical strength is often an overlooked area especially for non-elite high school kids. Physical strength can often be the great equalizer and if you are behind in this area, then it can hurt you not only from a speed perspective but even in XC too. I coached a kid who as a sophomore could not break 30 for the 200 because he was physically weak but could run all day. After 2 years in the weight room and work very similar to the 6x200 I said above, he was able to run 54 low for a 4x400 split and ending up running around 4:30/9:40. Not spectacular obviously, but for someone who could not break 30 as a sophomore this was quite an improvement! He went on to college and has ran under 16 for 5K multiple times on the track.

So those who have suggested hill sprints and sprinting are on the right track because these things can help that and help with your speed, but when it comes down to it, you need to find a way to get physically stronger. This will also help you with XC this year and can help with injury prevention as well. Main area to focus on with this are exercises that work your hamstrings and glutes. You will be sore for about 2 weeks with weights, but it will pay off for you come XC season.

Good luck!

sman wrote:

ok thanks everybody for the responses, but a couple of them arent really usefull. I just wanted to reiterate what Im looking for. Im pretty slow, but my aerobic base isnt terrible. My ultimate goal 5k in xc. Im mainlywondering if I should focus on speed which im bad at, or do base and just build up a ton for xc. Based on what people have been saying, right now im looking to just do base, with some speed drills and striders, but let me know if you guys have any other advice.

If you're focusing on xc, work on building base. Add some strides at the end of your runs so you can get some turnover going. I never trained for the mile in hs (was more of an xc/2 mile guy). Ran 16:57 during cross country and broke 5 that following season. The easiest way to avoid becoming one of those long distance runners that can't kick is to practice it. I'm not saying add short repeats every day and be an 800. I'm just saying add some turnover to your schedule. You'll probably end up being fit enough to break 5 just off the base you've built.

I can tell you for sure , with 64-65 sec all out 400 there should be absolutely no problems for you

to run a sub 5 min mile( around 4:48 actually! ) and a sub 16:30 5 k if you know how to do it the best smartest way with as little mileage as possible, just to back up the workouts with perfect pace and rest between the reps in intervals.

-Just magical coaching! -

sman wrote:

all out 200 is 30 flat, maybe could go just sub 30. All out 400 is roughly 64-65

Yeah you need to get those down if you wanna improve at any distance other than the marathon.

There's a guy on my d3 team who reminds me of you a lot actually. His PR's are mid 29's for 8k, mid 17.xx for 5k, and 64 for 400m relay split. My Pr's are high 27.xx, mid 16.xx and 56-57 400m. Over the summer he hangs with me on 12-13 mile runs where I'm dropping low 6's the last few miles, and usually feels more comfortable than I do around 6:30-6:40 pace.

We were exactly the same over 5k 4 ish years ago, and he runs on average 70 mpw in the summer while I'm around 50 mpw (I get injured a lot)

My point is you need to focus on your speed first, because the goals you have will be difficult to achieve with a 64 400m (as the example shows above), yes you will sacrifice short term performance capability, but long term there is a good chance you will improve more from essentially an increased potential.

No! He doesn`t have to improve his sprint speed. 64-65 sec at 200/ 400 is enough to run 4:48 mile and sub 16:30 5 k . I`m 100% sure! :)

- Your magic head coach ! _

I just read the first page of this thread but there's people here saying you need to run a 60 second quarter to break 5:00? and that you need to be able to run 10 miles in 61 minutes?

if we are talking about a well-trained athlete with years of endurance training, then yes, probably 61min for 10mi is necessary. however, it's more than likely that OP is a newer runner or a high school runner, in which case you never need to have run 10 miles in your life to break 5:00. for the high schooler, the 60 second quarter would be a better demonstration of talent.

Ok yeah maybe with a 33:00 10k... but it would be easier for OP to just improve his 64

No! He doesn`t have to improve his sprint speed. 64-65 sec at 200/ 400 is enough to run 4:48 mile and sub 16:30 5 k . I`m 100% sure! :)

- Your magic head coach ! _[/quote]

So a high school kid who can only run 64 seconds for the 400 can run 4:48 and under 16:30?

A 4:48 is 72's which is 87.5% of his 400 Meter Max. That percentage of Max is more likely what someone would run for the 800 not the 1600.

A 16:30 is 79's which is 76.56% of his 400 Meter Max. That percentage of Max is more likely what someone would run for the 1600 not the 5K.

The OP has stated he thinks he could run 5:15 right now which is just under 79's.

However, if the OP could improve his 400 time to let's say 60, then you are looking at 72's being around 80% of his max and 79's being around 68.33% of his max. He wants to run sub 5 so 74's is 76.67% of a 400 Max of 60. Now add the appropriate endurance training on top of that baseline speed and it gives him more of an opportunity to achieve the times you are talking about.

With a sub 16:30 5 k he will run a sub 34 10 k .

How training and competition times/ results are related in practice few are better at mastering.

It is mathematically related , but not according to your calculations.

I can run 10 miles at sub 6 pace but my mile pr is 4:56

sman wrote:

What is your opinion on doubles, as I was considering trying the summer of malmo plan? and would I be keepin gup the 60 mpw throughout the xc season or would I drop down a bit to 45-50 mpw? Thanks

I ran 8-10 times per week when I hit 55-60 mpw as a senior in high school, but I was a fast-twitch/800m guy who mileage really impacted (doing an easy 8 at 7:15 pace was never easy for me, and always affected my ability do quality faster stuff). Doubles will have some value for you while building your mileage to new peak levels, but as seemingly more of a slow-twitch guy, I would try to see if, once you've built to 65 mpw, you can do it 7 or 8 runs a week (just one double, maaaaaybe two). If that gets taxing, though, sure, double to get in the mileage you need. Just don't double on your long run day, and figure out which of doubling on your workout days or doubling on your easy days you like better (I always liked an easy 3-miler in the AM before an afternoon workout or race, and then getting to really take it easy on my easy days).

Next winter before outdoor track, when you return to base phase, you might try to build to a peak of 75 mpw and a steady 70+ mpw, and at that point 3-5 doubles will probably be a good idea.

As far as what you do during XC season, that should be a conversation you have with your coach. If they want you to do less mileage during practice because that's what the rest of the team does, ask them if you can do more outside of that--3-4 days of 4-5 in the AM, or doing an additional 20-30 minutes on your warm-up if you have time for that before practice. I tend to think that keeping your mileage within 10% of your peak mileage (with the exception of down weeks every 3-4 weeks, when it can drop way lower) until the final 3-4 weeks is a good way to keep up strength, especially for an aerobic monster like you.

OP, strides 2x per week, fast 200s once per week, boost your mileage and CRANK. THAT. HOG!

I'm a sophomore in HS, and as a freshman I went 4:58 in the mile with a 63 second 400 PR and no way I could make it more that 5 miles at a 6:00 pace. This year I can do the 10x6:00 and a 58.4, but I never ran a mile before they cancelled the season. Point is, it's definitely possible to go sub-5 without killer speed or endurance.

For the OP

Early in my time as a competitive runner I ran 16:39 for my first 5000m (on the track). My PRs at the time were pretty balanced as I did not focus that year on either speed or endurance specifically. I was probably running about 40-50 mpw and doing interval workouts twice a week.

At the time I ran 16:39 (in the summer) I had run 4:40.5 for 1600m, 10:08 for 3200m, and 59.7 for 400m during the school outdoor season. I ran 34:41 for 10k on the road a couple weeks after the 5000 and have no idea what I could have done for 10 miles but probably around 58:00.

I don't think you will be able to run in the area of 16:30 without your mile being under 4:50 at least (probably more like 4:45). I don't think you need sub 60 400m speed for that 5k time though.

Work on your endurance primarily, but don't neglect your speed.

Ernest wrote:

For comparison, I could run 27s 200s all day and ran marathons between 6:30 and 6:40 pace and never broke a 5 min mile.

People are different, I guess. I did 30-31s 200s when I ran 4.50 mile, but no hope maintaining 6.30 pace for marathon. I didn't train for marathon back then, though.

In that shape, I ran 16.50 5k. 10 miles with pace 6.40 was moderate effort.

I’m in the same boat as OP (I’m female though) I can run 13-15 miles in a training run at 6:40 no problem, mile PR is only a 5:20. I could maybe go 5:10ish now. I’ve run 17:45 5k and 1:20 half; but I just don’t have the fast twitch to get a fast mile. I can only do maybe a 32-34 for 200 and a 69 400. Great suggestions on this thread about the speed and strength stuff, I’m going to start working on some of those things now while there are no races to run.

Idiot's suggesting you need 10@ 6min pace to run under 5 for a mile is kind of sad. Is that really how it works for the slow twitch "lsd" crowd? I would have quit running if I were against such physiological barriers.