GAGS wastes USATF money

At least they were there representing. How is your success at the World level?

Farm Proud, auditor critiques a coach's tactics and you attempt to invalidate his argument by asserting that only guys at that level are allowed an opinion... or perhaps just negative opinion. I will assume that you are of national-level caliber, being that you critiqued the post of another runner. Otherwise, I fail to see your logic.

Are you upset that Gags was called on his choice of tactics (assuming they are his)? If so perhaps you should just post that you have been emotionally hurt to the point where you feel prompted to lash out at another person. I would consider the consequences of your only allowing those in the upper-level of American distance running to voice their opinions on tactics and other distance running matters. You might find that you've dug yourself a mighty large hole, from which it's very difficult to escape.

Gags is in somewhat of a high-profile position as head coach of the Farm Team. His job is always going to be under scrutiny, and there are many people who will constantly call him on his decisions. You may say, "But you people aren't there for the day-to-day proceedings." In that you would be correct. But I do believe I could get you to confess that at the end of the day, we must use at least some form of measurement to determine success (times, places, etc.). I'll agree with you that context is important, but the fact that less than 1% of the board really knows what's going on in Palo Alto does not allow Gags immunity from criticism. Sometimes criticism is negative. Many times it comes from negative sources. I will grant you that we must have patience with Gags and allow him some time to work with athletes; enough time so that we may dismiss successes and failures that can be attributed to previous coaches/situations and gain a clearer view of how Gags is affecting his athletes. But you must prepare yourself for the potential onslaught of opinions from many different people, in many different situations. They may not all be as fast as you want them to be, but they might make a point here and there which should be noted.

>? and audit a auditor, a question for you guys, what is it you would have them do? Neither are world class, and would not have made it into the final any other way BUT to get after it early.

I wonder about you tough guys. How do you run YOUR qualifying rounds? What would you have done in Stember and Lunns place? Fact is, you don't know. Stember an Lunn made good decisions and they'll get better.

You've got your terminology all wrong, posting anonymously on an internet message board is not CRITICISM, it's COWARDICE.

Malmo,

If I were Stember or Lunn, I would've run from the front, just as they did. I agree with what they did, what Gags told them to do, and your reasoning as well.

Did I critique Gags, Stember, or Lunn in any of my previous posts? I offer the challenge up to you to discover any criticism relating to the race and tactics utilized within the race. I am innocent of your charge.

auditor made a harsh criticism. Farm Proud made the point that auditor should not be allowed to say anything because he (maybe) is not as fast as Lunn or Stember. That is very VERY dangerous logic. I think you would agree. I merely pointed this out to him.

Running out in the front was THE BEST THING they could've done. Please don't align me with auditor because I was not in agreement with him. However, his just because he doesn't meet Farm Proud's time standard for being allowed to comment/criticize does not mean he should not have a voice and have people stand up for his right to an opinion.

First, Gags is a good coach. He gave Holman and Kenah the preparation they needed and then it was up to the athlete to perform.

As far as this past weekend, I don't think leading was a good idea, but in Stember's case I don't think he was trying to lead. Going out in 2:08 you would expect the world's best to go ahead and pass him but no one did.

Copy >?. I hear ya.

Running with the big boys is tough. It bugs me that everyone with a keyboard has an opinion in these things when their focus should be directed at what will help them at their little NCAA D-XXV regional meets. The guys on the cusp, like Stember and Lunn, don't need shit from a bunch a tough-talking punks.

I agree with running from the front. ANYBODY can win a kickers race. If you make it a kickers race you leave too much up to chance. Stember and Lunn are great athletes, and they definitely are world class but they are not accomplished enough (yet) to run a race where they know they are going to HAVE to finish in 53 or faster. You make it fast from the gun and you eliminate a lot of pretenders. And I hate how people are always bagging on Holman. See how the USA champs that he didn't win went??? They were kickers' races. I think if he had gone from the gun, the way that Stember and Lunn did he would've won many of those races. Gags is a great coach. And his runners are great athletes. A coach does more than race tactics... he gets his athletes in a position where we are able to criticize their tactics.

Holman WON the USA champs in a kickers race. How do you account for that?

That was earlier in his career and he wasn't as accomplished then... a kickers race was more suited for him at that point.

Malmo, those of us who are running NAIA, D-II, D-III regional meets and occasionally winning our races are focused on those things that will make us better. The critics and cheap shot artists are generally the people who are big talkers, but don't back it up with the work ethic and dedication that it takes to improve. I have nothing but respect for my fellow competitors at whatever level they have achieved who go out and toe the line and give it their best effort. Success comes from taking those defeats and using them as education and motivation to make the next race better. The real competitors from grade school through international competition aren't the guys trashing their competition on message boards. Some of us of limited talent have the drive to compete at the highest level of which we are capable, and have nothing but respect for those who are blessed with the talent and drive to reahc the world-class level.

D-XXVer, I did not intend "D-XXV" as a cheap shot on NAIA, D-II, or D-III. In my book all Divisions are worthy and all PRs are good PRs. Lying about PRs is another matter.

That remark is directed at the tough-guys here who get a shot of testosterone when their fingers touch the keyboard. the ones who have it figured out what it takes to run in the big leagues, yet they still mark their shoes "left" and "right".

Malmo,

My bad I was thinking that he won it in '92 when he got 2nd. I still think he would've won more if he had front run more of 'em.

I knew you mixed up races. It was nice to see Holman do it that way, just as nice as Sebs 84 Oly win.

There are talkers and there are doers. Everyone decides for themselves which side of the fence they stand.

Malmo, you are quite the overly defensive one. No need to get your panties in a bunch just because people have opinions that differ from yours and may be critical of superior athletes.

Also, sure, Holman did win in a kickers race, but he also lost a hell of a lot of US championships that finished as kickers races. I don't think one of many really makes that the ideal way for him to race.

Not to give any wrong impressions, I think Gags is a great coach and I'd like to see Stember and Lunn progress.

I don't wear panties. I think that's already been established.

[quote]?> wrote:

Farm Proud, auditor critiques a coach's tactics and you attempt to invalidate his argument by asserting that only guys at that level are allowed an opinion.

No, I was upset that someone had to find the negative in the fact that we sent 2 athletes in the 1500 and 2 athletes in the 3k (1 alumni). It doesn't matter what we accomplish some asshole who has no clue what it takes to achieve at that level will come on here and be critical. My point is simple. If not for Gags and the Farm Team we would be unrepresented in the distances. Deal with it don't be critical.

I agree that someone making that negative comment was poor and not very constructive. Nevertheless, you came right back at him with an equally harsh comment.

I disagree with you that we would not be represented without Gags and the Farm Team. What has been proved over and over and over again, is that fast runners come out of every sector of the country, as well as the world. Guys like Riley, Lunn, Asmerom, and Stember would have found a group to train with. They might have run slower, the same, or faster with a different coach and club.

The Farm Team is a good situation for many runners. The group training can be very beneficial and I think the Farm Team owes some of it's success to Gags and what he has done. Don't get me wrong on that.

What I want people to ask themselves is what constitutes improvement that can be pinned to Gags' coaching? I mean, if I was a teacher with two A+ students, does that alone make me a good teacher? What about the entire class? One of the problems I see here on this board is that people put forth one or two runners as proof of a coach's knowledge of training/racing. Here is what I would suggest:

List every runner on the Farm Team with their PRs the last few years. Then list their performances under Gags. If a runner gets injured, that is important to know! If a runner has a subpar year, that is important to know! You are not allowed to neglect data or write it off because it does not fit your claim. If the conclusion doesn't make sense, check your premise. The data should be presented, agreed upon, and then we can engage in an interpretation debate. At least we will all be one step further on the road to figuring out just what Gags' affect has been.

Specifically, what I believe I'm looking for is to ascertain what strides each athlete has made since Gags took over. But mark this, that even if each has made little or no improvement under Gags I am fully willing to accept reasoning ranging from some guys are overtraining, to Gags needs more time. I'm open to that. But do not neglect EVERYONE Gags has coached. That is important to keep in mind.

Gags has been in Palo Alto for 1.5 years. I don't think you can evaluate his effect from just one outdoor year/ championship, especially a non-world champs year like 2002(am I right that aside from krumenacker, were US distance times last year the slowest in the last 20 years?) But the point of the above message is good, in theory: look at what the guys in Gags' program were doing before he got them and see whether they improved and determine how much of the improvement was from him and how much would have occurred in any group training setting.

But of course, this is impossible because palo alto is probably the only place in the country with more than 4 3:42 guys post-collegiately, so you have nothing to compare it to. (note I am only talking about middle distance and post-collegiates) Maybe you could compare it to enclave guys but that was gags too, and there you had a lot of guys continuing from the gtown program. The non hoyas I ran with in the enclave all saw decent improvements over 2-4 years with the program. improvements could have been bigger and we could have been more consistent, but we usually had 3 guys each in the 1500 and 800 finals at USATFs. Admittedly, no one of stember's or lunn's caliber ever came to gags after college so there's no history of gags getting superstars after college. just solid low to mid 3:40s guys.

but here is what I remember. Also it's important to note that a lot of the guys (myself included) had stagnated a little bit at the end of their college career so it's not as if these improvements were from guys still being high on the learning curve.

steve myers: from 3:46 down to 3:42

terrance armstrong: 3:45 down to 3:41

matt holthaus: 3:42 down to 3:54 mile (also 3:38 several times)

john honerkamp: 4:04 mile down to 3:41

chris greer (now with farm team): 4:04 mile down to 3:42

mike ryan: 4:01 mile down to 3:40.50 (one of the most clutch races ever, maine distance festival, where ryan hit the qualifying time for olympic trials '00 on the nose, and then went on to make the finals at the trials)

pascal bernier: 4:07 mile down to 4:03

brendan rogers: ???

jim tuxbury: ??

I'm probably forgetting some guys, and I don't know how the 800 guys did. Gags didn't coach the distance guys at the enclave.