Can the owners of this site finally stop crying about/doing free advertisment for the Vaporfly all day long?

Are you going to ignore that the marathon times have been destroyed the past 3 seasons?

1 2:01:39 Eliud Kipchoge 16.09.2018

2 2:01:41 Kenenisa Bekele 29.09.2019

3 2:02:37 Eliud Kipchoge 28.04.2019

4 2:02:48 Birhanu Legesse 29.09.2019

5 2:02:55 Mosinet Geremew 28.04.2019

6 2:02:57 Dennis Kimetto 28.09.2014

7 2:03:02a Geoffrey Mutai 18.04.2011

8 2:03:03 Kenenisa Bekele 25.09.2016

9 2:03:05 Eliud Kipchoge 24.04.2016

10 2:03:06a Moses Mosop 18.04.2011

11 2:03:13 Emmanuel Mutai 28.09.2014

11 2:03:13 Wilson Kipsang Kiprotich 25.09.2016

13 2:03:16 Mule Wasihun 28.04.2019

14 2:03:23 Wilson Kipsang Kiprotich 29.09.2013

15 2:03:32 Eliud Kipchoge 24.09.2017

16 2:03:34 Getaneh Molla 25.01.2019

17 2:03:36 Sisay Lemma 29.09.2019

18 2:03:38 Patrick Makau 25.09.2011

19 2:03:40 Herpasa Negasa 25.01.2019

And the marathon has been a major event since a long time, unlike other road races who are not olympic.

Your thread generated a Nike Sale popup on my MacBook #apple #vaporfly #nikerunning

Weak argumentation, you could make exactly the same point 5 years ago in pre-vaporfly times back in the beginning of 2015. Marathon times always got faster, whatever the reason might be:

1 2:02:57 Dennis KIMETTO 28 SEP 2014

2 2:03:13 Emmanuel MUTAI 28 SEP 2014

3 2:03:23 Wilson Kipsang KIPROTICH 29 SEP 2013

4 2:03:38 Patrick Makau MUSYOKI 25 SEP 2011

5 2:03:59 Haile GEBRSELASSIE 28 SEP 2008

6 2:04:05 Eliud KIPCHOGE 29 SEP 2013

7 2:04:15 Geoffrey MUTAI 30 SEP 2012

8 2:04:23 Ayele ABSHERO 27 JAN 2012

9 2:04:27 Duncan KIBET 05 APR 2009

9 2:04:27 James Kipsang KWAMBAI 05 APR 2009

11 2:04:28 Sammy KITWARA 12 OCT 2014

12 2:04:32 Tsegaye MEKONNENm 24 JAN 2014

12 2:04:32 Dickson CHUMBA 12 OCT 2014

14 2:04:38 Tsegaye KEBEDE 07 OCT 2012

15 2:04:45 Lelisa DESISA 25 JAN 2013

16 2:04:48 Yemane TSEGAY 15 APR 2012

16 2:04:48 Berhanu SHIFERAW 25 JAN 2013

18 2:04:49 Tadesse TOLA 25 JAN 2013

19 2:04:50 Dino SEFIR 27 JAN 2012

Also I don't think it's very suprising that Bekele and Kipchoge, two of the most talented track athletes of all time, can run 1min+ faster that a Kenyan nobody named Kimetto who started with running at the age of 24. And even if we would agree that the Vaporfly creates a certain advantage (which I don't) my point still stands.

Also, to jump another 5 years back, in the beginning of 2010 ofc too:

1 2:03:59 Haile GEBRSELASSIE 28 SEP 2008

2 2:04:27 Duncan KIBET 05 APR 2009

2 2:04:27 James Kipsang KWAMBAI 05 APR 2009

4 2:04:55 Paul TERGAT 28 SEP 2003

5 2:04:56 Sammy Kipchoge KORIR 28 SEP 2003

6 2:05:04 Abel KIRUI 05 APR 2009

7 2:05:10 Samuel Kamau WANJIRU 26 APR 2009

8 2:05:15 Martin Kiptolo LEL 13 APR 2008

9 2:05:18 Tsegaye KEBEDE 06 DEC 2009

10 2:05:27 Jaouad GHARIB 26 APR 2009

11 2:05:30 Abderrahim GOUMRI 13 APR 2008

12 2:05:38 Khalid KHANNOUCHI 14 APR 2002

13 2:05:47 Vincent KIPRUTO 05 APR 2009

14 2:05:49 William KIPSANG 13 APR 2008

15 2:05:50 Evans RUTTO 12 OCT 2003

16 2:06:05 Ronaldo DA COSTA 20 SEP 1998

17 2:06:14 Felix LIMO 04 APR 2004

17 2:06:14 Patrick Makau MUSYOKI 05 APR 2009

17 2:06:14 Gilbert Kipruto KIRWA 25 OCT 2009

+1. It’s gotten ridiculous.

As I've said before, ultimately it will be deduced that the main driver for any positive effects of the VF are due to a combination of belief (people expect to run faster in VF), hype, and simply the reduction of leg fatigue due to the soft cushion.

Prior to the VF era, nearly all race shoes were designed to be be as light and minimal as possible. Well, that's just not ideal, even for small elite runners. Everyone experiences leg/muscle fatigue, and the VF significantly reduces that fatigue. This is the new era of racing shoe: highly cushioned, but lightweight enough to be efficient. Plates in the soles have been around for 20 years in many different shoes -- it's just that Nike got the combination right of cushion and efficiency.

If the VF is regulated, be prepared for the absurdity of watching hundreds of runners having to get their shoes inspected/measured before a race. Good luck with that. It's ridiculous.

Where can I get a cheap Vaporflys?

People, you are correct that one can manipulate stats to make everything look crazy. But come on, only an idiot would deny that the marathon times have gotten ridiculous in the last year plus.

Someone in the Dubai thread asked why did I make a tweet referring to the shoes as "Cheaterflys". The answer is simple. These shoes are the grandchildren of the 2016 Olympic shoes which were against the rules in my opinion and yet the race hasn't been invalidated.

It's like the Sopranos. The children may not be in the mob but everyone associates them with the mob.

The reality is that while you on letsrun are tired of the Vaporfly story as you've been hearing it for months now (really since Kipchoge and Kosgei), the reality is it's only going mainstream today. My dad who doesn't follow running at all just sent me an email about it, asking me my thoughts. The WSJ did a video of it and I assume that's what he saw. My buddy said he too has had non-running friends ask him about it in the last week as well.

rojo wrote:.

These shoes are the grandchildren of the 2016 Olympic shoes which were against the rules in my opinion and yet the race hasn't been invalidated.

It's like the Sopranos. The children may not be in the mob but everyone associates them with the mob.

.

I’m not sure if “everyone“ really feels that way or if it’s just the media looking for a story to generate ad sales. Given some of the some of the articles that have been put out I tend to think it’s the latter. Regardless, being guilty by association doesn’t mean Meadow and AJ deserve to get whacked or thrown in jail. Same goes for the shoes. I’d prefer that we let the working group evaluate the evidence and make an unbiased decision that isn’t influenced by media-generated hysteria or what we perceive ”everyone” feels.

While stats can be manipulated, the only ones manipulating things are people with their heads in the sand trying to deny it. Did you read my column from December?

Additionally, check out the stats from Helmut Winter. He has a fantastic piece out that I'm going to start a new thread about. It's in german but use google translate. In recent years, he says normally about 50 men would break 2:08 each year and 50 women would break 2:25. This year those numbers jumped to 99 and 108.

His basic conclusion is that men's elite times have improved by about 1:45 or 1.5% and women's 2%.

Here is Winters article:

and Here is the link to my article from December.

Stats like this are a good reminder to take things in perspective.

However I'd argue a few things. 1) The rate of improvement of the top times is getting faster. Taking a 1.5 minutes off a 2:03 marathon is a lot harder than taking say a minute off a 2:05. Yet the rate is increasing.

2) Even just looking at the top 20 times in the world which has a ton of variability one thing that stands out to is the entire top 5 of the current list came once the new shoe came out. Kipchoge ran 2018 Berlin in a prototype of the 2019 shoe where everyone is crushing it. I think the current version of the shoe is better than the ones before.

But the top 20 is going to have a lot of variability.

Something like this is better:

http://run.hwinter.de/?p=19100

Why would you assume the owners of this site aren't getting paid to post/ allow so many threads on the Vaporfly's?

Nope, not a chance. At least you created the latest one, not anyone else. And the WR was set in a newer adidas shoe model, NOT the Takumi Sen. But nice try?

Correlation does not equal causation, and causation does not equal cheating. From personal experience the VFs have produced marginally faster marathon times (2:42 vs 2:40) than my old racers (lunaracer). This improvement could be due to any number of factors including fitness, a flatter course, better pacing, race day weather, and the shoes. My perception is that the shoes factor is pretty small compared to the others.

+1. Would be great if the focus was on the actual runners.

angryjohnny wrote:

Correlation does not equal causation, and causation does not equal cheating. From personal experience the VFs have produced marginally faster marathon times (2:42 vs 2:40) than my old racers (lunaracer). This improvement could be due to any number of factors including fitness, a flatter course, better pacing, race day weather, and the shoes. My perception is that the shoes factor is pretty small compared to the others.

The benefit of Vaporflies is different for different people. There was a four times difference in benefit from the lowest to highest responders in the CU Boulder study (1.59% to 6.26% improvement in efficiency). Your perception is probably accurate for you, but some people are getting a much bigger benefit.

Vaporfly stories are great. The Vaporflys are the biggest story in running today, clearly changing not only the speed but the manner in which marathons are run. It's silly to just ignore the shoes and pretend everyone suddenly got faster through hard work

Rojo - pls just admit Nike is paying you outrageous sums of money to advertise for them all day. I bet you singlehandedly are responsible for $100,000 of Vaporfly sales, at the very LEAST.

This guy for president. I'm so very tired of it.