How come a “slow twitch” man like Kipchoge can run sub 12 100m

exrunner wrote:

The high proportion of fast twitch fibres (which are not a made up thing, they are real btw), is exactly why they are quick and can achieve high cadence.

Absolutely wrong. That's why I mentioned mechanics and nerves. High cadence is all about technique.

This is a very good question. I recall being given the slow twitch explanation when I wondered why I could not go under 59 in 400. In my opinion, such an explanation is only partially correct and not very helpful.

The question being actually asked perhaps should be phrased differently. "I want to be better than I am now. My ratio of 400 to all longer distances is more or less what it would be for a world-class runner, my training is pretty close to their training as well. The only way I see myself significantly improving is if my 400 got faster. What can I do?"

I would take fast twitch vs slow twitch argument if the question was "why can't I run under 49". With 59 we are dealing with problems that are more serious than just not having enough fast-twitch fibers. This could be less than optimal skeleton build, lack of muscle coordination, muscle fibers weighing too much for the power that they produce, etc - in short you do not have what it takes and it does not come by training using the currently known methods.

If we were more willing to face this blunt truth, I believe eventually it would lead to discovering training regiments/nutrition/treatments to address the root cause of not being able to run fast as well as cure a number of other more significant illnesses.

hell ya, bolt as a 20.4 200m 16 year old was skinny as a rake. dude was super skinny

lincecum pitcher broke in to the league at 145lbs, with 99 mph fast ball.

you got jeremy warriner with the 148 pounds max with the OG win. and 44 flat.

you got neymar. you got michael jordan, who broke in skinny as a rake, super skinny,

then you got bob beamon....

etc.etc.

but with PEDs and specific training these skinny dudes gain like crazy.

and they also get injured and slower after a year or two.

anyway, the fastest dude ever was also super skinny. until he got PEDs, but he kept growing.

and got too big to get out of the blocks and was always getting injured.

ok, you get it.

Wasn’t it Canova that posted about one of his athletes who closed a 5k in 51 or 52 and then entered an open 400 a week or so later and ran 51 or 52?

I don’t have much to add to the conversation other than the fact that a couple of you are downplaying just how fast 11.9X is. I would bet good money against Kipchoge breaking 12.00 FAT from a standing or block start.

guys that don't learn how to start are penalized about 1.5 seconds.

middle distance guys can all do 11 second running start 100m.

so the 11.0 translates into a 12.5 100m.

if they practiced the start, that would knock off a half second.

and then there is the weirdness of running one lap when you're not used to it, to get in the rhythm, and turn it over.

at the end of the day, saying moe farah is a 13.0 100m guy is insane.

this is the perfect example of no specific training.

moe could break 12.0 very easily with specific training and start, and at peak, not with 120 miles run that week.

i've run these times myself, and know that sir. moe be quite a bit faster, for sure.

Runs marathons now but he was a 3:50 miler. His 400m was most likely low 48 seconds and maybe faster.

iflyboats wrote:

Ggggg wrote:

The twitch people obviously would say that Kipchoge or any other marathon runner have mostly slow twitch fibers muscle in his legs, so how come he can run 100m in sub 12 seconds or if you will for sure sub 50 form 400m, while most fit people that aren’t professional athletes and probably don’t have high percentage of slow twitch like Kipchoge can’t even run sub 15 for 100m and can’t even run sub 60 for 400m?

Is because the whole slow twitch fast twitch isn’t what makes someone fast or slow?

There are two premises here:

a) Kipcoge and other endurance athletes are "slow twitch"

b) The ability to run a sub-12 100m or sub-50 400m requires above average "fast-twitch" characteristics.

One of them is false.

Yes. Without a muscle biopsy, we don't know Kipchoge's muscle makeup. It's wrong to assume he's all slow twitch.

"That’s right, from elite ultra-marathoners to the slowest, least athletic humanoid on the planet – we’ve all got plenty of “fast-twitch” (FT) fibers in our muscles. "

Read more here from scientist that study it:

There's also the possibility that someone could be almost all intermediate fibers of either type.

Ggggg wrote:

3hr-marathoner wrote:

Right, 12 seconds isn't very fast for a fit person. Even bad sprinters can break 12 seconds. Kipchoge is one of the most fit people on earth but he still wouldn't score in the 100 or 200 meters in most high school dual meets.

12 seconds is super fast for a fit man and more than 99% of people who aren’t runners but are fit won’t break 12 seconds. The majority of fit people won’t run 15 seconds

Rubbish.

Its not super anything

Ggggg wrote:

3hr-marathoner wrote:

Right, 12 seconds isn't very fast for a fit person. Even bad sprinters can break 12 seconds. Kipchoge is one of the most fit people on earth but he still wouldn't score in the 100 or 200 meters in most high school dual meets.

12 seconds is super fast for a fit man and more than 99% of people who aren’t runners but are fit won’t break 12 seconds. The majority of fit people won’t run 15 seconds

i can't tell if you're joking or not. i guessestimate about 95% of fit males between the ages of 15-30 can run a 100m faster than 15 seconds. perhaps people in their last 20s who were never active in their lives wouldn't be able to do it, but 15s 100m is easy as piss

Well, when I was 17, my PBs for 800m and 1600m were similar to yours (I could also run 3000m in 9:58 and 5000m in 17:23). I was a fairly muscular guy at the time but lean. The best I could do for 100m was 13.5s. There were several guys in my high school guys who were not runners but ran 100m under 13s and there were 2 who could run around 12s. I definitely did not have any disability...-:)

Ggggg wrote:

The twitch people obviously would say that Kipchoge or any other marathon runner have mostly slow twitch fibers muscle in his legs, so how come he can run 100m in sub 12 seconds or if you will for sure sub 50 form 400m, while most fit people that aren’t professional athletes and probably don’t have high percentage of slow twitch like Kipchoge can’t even run sub 15 for 100m and can’t even run sub 60 for 400m?

Is because the whole slow twitch fast twitch isn’t what makes someone fast or slow?

Sub 12 is not fast, Sub 11 we start talking about ! You feel like it is, as looking at Sub 10 and Sub 12 will give you only 2 seconds . In reality the performance differences will be similar to a 2h marathon to a 2:15 marathon. At those speeds, you will start investing years for each split second and incremental gains will come super slowly. Genetics start getting into the picture, childhood and adulthood environmental factors and so on.

Jack Hale ran a 10.44 - 100m when he was 16. You would think OMG, he is going to be the next Usain Bolt. He just has to cut down 0.1 second a year ! 5 years sub 10 ! No, it is not how it works. He never went in a no wind race under 10.19 as those incremental gains come from loads of factors at that level !!!

Even the difference between sub 10.5 and Sub 10 for 100m is worlds apart ! It is like 2:08 and sub 2:02 marathon.

You do realize that a 12 second 100m is 20% slower than a 10 second 100m? That's a huge difference. It's the difference between a 4 minute mile and a 4:48 mile. A 2 hour marathon and a 2:24 marathon.

I don't consider sub 12 very , very fast. Almost any high school miler should be able to break 15 I would think. I've run 58 for first 400m in a 1500m race not paying attention to the pace (paid for it later) and that was very easy. Easy enough that I thought I was going a lot slower. I've only met one guy that was really good at the marathon level (2:20 level or so) that couldn't break 60 in a 400.

Bad Wigins wrote:

exrunner wrote:

The high proportion of fast twitch fibres (which are not a made up thing, they are real btw), is exactly why they are quick and can achieve high cadence.

Absolutely wrong. That's why I mentioned mechanics and nerves. High cadence is all about technique.

No. Of course a high cadence involves mechanics and the CNS. That is true of all movement.

But please explain why there has there never been an elite sprinter with 50 % slow twitch fibres.

"Is because the whole slow twitch fast twitch isn’t what makes someone fast or slow?"

It's about what the potential is. The best sprinters split sub 9 in the 4 x 100. A flying sub 12 might as well be walking to those guys. Ostriches lean more slow twitch and they can do flying sub 5s.

That being said, I would love to see a race between fully 100m trained buff Ryan Hall against 2:04aided Ryan Hall.

I really like this study. Even between pretty fast 100m and 800m runners, there’s a pretty big difference:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1600-0838.1992.tb00321.x

No, he can’t. He might be able to do a flying 12-second 100m, but I doubt even that.

In any case, the best 100m guys run well-sub-9-second relay anchors, making him at best 33% slower than them, and probably slower than that.

And from blocks, fuhgeddaboudit. Farah’s 13-seconds from blocks wasn’t even that fast, see the thread in which it is discussed. Sub-10 compared to 13.5 is even worse—and yes, one needs fast-twitch fibers that hypertrophy well to generate the large forces required for acceleration from blocks.

Sprintgeezer wrote:

No, he can’t. He might be able to do a flying 12-second 100m, but I doubt even that.

In any case, the best 100m guys run well-sub-9-second relay anchors, making him at best 33% slower than them, and probably slower than that.

And from blocks, fuhgeddaboudit. Farah’s 13-seconds from blocks wasn’t even that fast, see the thread in which it is discussed. Sub-10 compared to 13.5 is even worse—and yes, one needs fast-twitch fibers that hypertrophy well to generate the large forces required for acceleration from blocks.

I already explained this to the OP, a few days ago. So he starts a new thread saying the same thing. And then, surprise surprise it's featured on the the front page "On the boards" i.e. letsrun staff doing a troll job.