Boston Marathon: 1979 vs Today? (continued)

Danny,

Don't bother to look ... the dead guy wasn't BR and 1979 BAA results are still better!

TF

LOL!!!

OK, let rock'n'roll!

TFFLYER,

How are you?

Patti,

Just like old times sister ... SOS .... but in a different order. I hope that the kids and Danny are well and training is going smooth. Can't wait to hear from BR .... we need to make this thread a more intellectual converstion, not just this running stuff from 25-30 years ago!

Can someone call Hoggie-san? We definitely need his "angle" on the running world!

TF

OK just because I feel like I need a dose of humility, how much did the winner beat my 2:16 PR on that course from '81 by?

Danny,

They didn't runner faster I don't think ... 2:17 ... we can ask BR when he gets online. $6000 CD was given to the winner I believe ...I'll bet you it was an African though!

TF

I just did, not by phone, email...so hopefully he'll get it...but ya;know he goes to snooze land pretty early these days. Yeah, the guys gets up at aobut 5 AM to run. Can you believe it? What's up with that!!! I mean can't he wait until at least 6AM. I think he's doing to make US all look bad. Oh excuse me, Tommy, I beg for your grace...you're up early right? (chuckle, chuckle)

I don't think I got a dime for My second place back then. You won this one once, didn't you. What did you take home besides the smelly sneakers?

Hoggie-san an "old fart" already? poor boy ... I get up everyday at 6AM and have my Cheerios, shower, tie/white shirt (can you believe!) and off to school.... only time I get peace and quiet to do some work before the kids get in at 7:45 AM!

Would love to "jog" more often but have no motivation except to keep it under 200 lbs!

TF

ps Over 50+ basketball season starts in one month here!

questions on training, for TF:

i know you were an advocate of higher mileage back in your day, but obviously i'm guessing you worked up to the consistent 140-160 a week you put in while getting ready for boston, etc.

what kind of mileage did you run in college and how did it progress in from your early to late 20's? what kind of pace did you run on your average runs and what were your bread and butter type of workouts at different points of your career?

lastly, what were your PR's in your early 20's (22-23 years old) and later 20's?

sorry to bombard you with all these questions, and believce me i have more. i'm a decent runner in his early 20s looking to get better, so any advice or info that you can share from your competitve days is greatly appreciated. thanks!

MF

Danny,

I think I won it in 1977 or 78 (can't remember and can't find my training log book!!)

I caught Jerome Drayton over the last miles for the tape ... brought home about 1500 dollars!

Now that's some BIG bucks, ehh?

TF

questions on training, for TF:

i know you were an advocate of higher mileage back in your day, but obviously i'm guessing you worked up to the consistent 140-160 a week you put in while getting ready for boston, etc.

what kind of mileage did you run in college and how did it progress in from your early to late 20's? what kind of pace did you run on your average runs and what were your bread and butter type of workouts at different points of your career?

lastly, what were your PR's in your early 20's (22-23 years old) and later 20's?

sorry to bombard you with all these questions, and believce me i have more. i'm a decent runner in his early 20s looking to get better, so any advice or info that you can share from your competitve days is greatly appreciated. thanks!

MF

sorry that the message got posted twice

It was good to run with Dan this morning and the young generation of GBTC while Patti ran with a few of the young women in Franklin Park in Boston after a development x-c race. I am acutely involved with coaching runners now in a particular niche that did not exist in 1979. Then GBTC was the only serious club in Boston and was therefore the club to join. The ancient BAA did little but put on the marathon. They did not help track runners. The North Medford Club was road runners. But now there are lots of active competitve clubs for post collegiate runners. But there are also professional runners with agents and sponsors that did not exist in 1979. Now top DI runners graduate and face a decision that did not exist in 1979. They ask themselves if they want to or can become professional runners or not. If the answer is no, as it almost always is for anyone but an NCAA finalist or x-c top ten, then they see running as "maybe jump into a road race or "do" a marathon. The place between professional runner and fitness runner (one who runs in races but does not train to be competitive) is small.

Now there are the pros, a big gap and my guys who are close to 2:30 and women 3:00, and no inbetween to chase.

More people are running but fewer see that there is any dream to chase.

What do you think?

Tom

I think even the Hartford Marathon is getting a faster field than 2:17 now. Isn' there a hungy young American kid or a Canadian kid who couldn't use that dough for 2:17?

Hey MF,

I was lucky to find out that I improved on distance/endurance based mileage early in my running career... FLD (fast long distance not LSD) I starting running at age 17 (Sr year in HS) and was up to 80 mpw by age 19 and 100+ mpw by age 20. The minute I went HIGH mileage ALL my times dropped real quickly (from the mile to marathon) ... I was so strong and I didn't lose "speed" at all!

I have one of the oldest (if NOT the oldest .. American Records in the books) 1970 Junior 30k 1:40, with a 15 mile training run the day before .. no taper in those days!

Starting running marathons at age 17 (2:31) and after four hard years of training ran second at the '73 BAA in 2:17, ... by 23-24 yo ran 2:12 .... all very hard work and I dedicated myself to NYC, BAA and Fukuoka marathons ..all the other races were run as "my job" to earn money to live!

It was a nice life .. but NOT easy at all!

TF

Patti,

You're going to love this: BR is running a "little late" .. he just called me! He has to "unpack" ... what??? That pocketbook sized purse he uses for a traveling suitcase? And then he has to "eat" ... oh yeah, some grape nuts and worchester sauce I'm sure .. he never knew how to eat right!

TF

Not an easy life that's for sure!

It is somtimes funny how LITTLE I remember of the days I spent training with the GBTC bunch. Almost like you block out some of the most difficult stress in your life just so that you can keep on keeping on. Most of it had vanished completely until I relived it by reading Hodgie-san's website.

I remember you coming by a few times when you were in town while I was working in the New Balance factory in Allston. The whole GBTC bunck was at 100-130 MPW most of the time with plenty of hard track stuff in there. I remember running on the BC track most of the time outdoors, and at Tufts, and BC indoors. Also, sometimes Squires would have us do a session, leave the BC track and run some repeats up Heartbreak Hill, and then back to the track for a one mile time trial or something like that. We trained alot, and hard, sometimes as a group from Bill Rodgers old Cleveland Circle store and sometimes distance runs on our own. Squires used a great mix of both speed and endurancd threshold type work. (Did you know Squires has a book that just came out a couple of weeks ago that would give a good sense of how he used to handle us. See:

http://www.speedwithendurance.com/

The difference I remember most was that instead of doing 3-4 miles worth of fast repeat 400m or 800m's like I was used to, he would have us do all that and then after a short recovery do a 2 mile "time trial" at the end. So 5 to six miles worth of intrevals was not uncommon. Of course I'd had a couple of years of hard training with the guys down at PC to build into this. But I was still only 20 years old. And this was when I made my first US XC team. (Rodgers and Thomas made it too)

The thing that made this a difficult adjustment phase for me was not just the increase in training intensity, but the other things I did then. I lived in a very small apartment (the famous 22 Orkney Rd. Some of you have heard the ledgends) with GBTC teammates Randy Thomas and Vin Fleming. I slept on a folding cot that barely fit in the tiny hall each night. I was working in that New Balance shoe factory in Allston, actually making the shoes. Most days I'd run in the dark to work and in the dark home from work. I didn't have any sponsorships or anything. Almost no money, no car or anything except my running clothes and a Martin twelve string guitar. I tried to go out at night to the Eloit, the Exchange, or Marianne's with the guys sometimes, but because they didn't have to get up as early as I did I usually didn't stay out as late. When Randy and Vin came home I'd have to actually get up out of my cot at whatever time it was and fold it up in order to open the apartment door to let them in.

Squires wouldn't let me get comfortable in the GBTC routine, he was the one who insisted that I get back down to PC and finish up my degree. The PC routine as difficult as it was for me, was WAY easier than my GBTC sleep deprivation period.

what did you guys consider "eating right" when training hard? i was always curious to this reading the stories about bill, etc and some of the stuff he used to consume!

Diet is the next medical frontier for athletes to help racing results and better training .. NO ONE pays much attention to diet... college/HS kids might be the worse!

I good MD who knows about diet can help a well trained runner become better one I'm sure ... you need "good fuel" for the high test engine. Most runners eat crappy ... BR was the "Champion" in that dept. too!

High Carbo's all the time, you need protein too and veggies and fruits ... I was "stuck" on sugar (cookies and cola)... and I think that hurt me a few times in big races!

TF