High School Coaches: Do you treat your cross country team as a no-cut sport? Why or why not?

You’ve clearly never stepped away from competitive running, either mentally or physically, for any duration of time. Any sporting analogy is a moot point as far as I’m concerned because a militant dedication to sports comes at the expense of a well rounded life in most cases.

My coach didn’t explain anything from day one. It was just “my way or the highway” which is great for dealing with a captive audience. I remember how eye opening it was those first few months post running to see how life was better when priorities are balanced against one another in a healthy manner. If I needed to skip a workout go prepare for an exam, wowww, I actually could! Or if I needed extra hours in the warehouse to get some extra money for school, wow, I can make that choice myself and not have some cranky old runner dork get on my case about it. That sort of pragmatism has served me well in life and is something the running obsessed die hards clearly lack.

However, to each their own. I actually am glad I had the coaching experience that I did because it elucidated the eternal battle between the dogmatics and the pragmatics while showing me which side I was on.

We are no-cut and that tends to work pretty well for us. We do usually lose 2-3 girls (of about 30) over the course of the season, but they typically make that choice themselves. Honestly, just having a culture where practice is fun and hard work is celebrated solves most issues. Kids that aren't interested in working quickly realize that this isn't for them because they don't fit in socially and find something else to do with their time.

We actually aren't super strict about practice attendance because we want kids to be able to do multiple activities at the school, but we do hold kids to high standards on communication. If you are missing a practice, we should know about it in advance and if you are a returning athlete, you should also have a plan for making up the workout/run you missed.

hs girls coach wrote:

We are no-cut and that tends to work pretty well for us. We do usually lose 2-3 girls (of about 30) over the course of the season, but they typically make that choice themselves. Honestly, just having a culture where practice is fun and hard work is celebrated solves most issues. Kids that aren't interested in working quickly realize that this isn't for them because they don't fit in socially and find something else to do with their time.

We actually aren't super strict about practice attendance because we want kids to be able to do multiple activities at the school, but we do hold kids to high standards on communication. If you are missing a practice, we should know about it in advance and if you are a returning athlete, you should also have a plan for making up the workout/run you missed.

I think this a healthy and balanced coaching style. The authoritarians who have been posting should take note.

A bigger issue is who earns a letter. We are no cut all the way and that works as they usually cut themselves. Our letter policy is that they have to score in the meet ( top 5). But we always get heat from certain parents. ‘But she ran in the varsity race”.

hs girls coach wrote:

We are no-cut and that tends to work pretty well for us. We do usually lose 2-3 girls (of about 30) over the course of the season, but they typically make that choice themselves. Honestly, just having a culture where practice is fun and hard work is celebrated solves most issues. Kids that aren't interested in working quickly realize that this isn't for them because they don't fit in socially and find something else to do with their time.

We actually aren't super strict about practice attendance because we want kids to be able to do multiple activities at the school, but we do hold kids to high standards on communication. If you are missing a practice, we should know about it in advance and if you are a returning athlete, you should also have a plan for making up the workout/run you missed.

I agree that this is a great approach over the strict "my way or the highway" model but I think laying down some basic ground rules is a great way to instill that culture if it doesn't already exist. Attendance and attitude are probably the biggest things to bed into a team and I think having clearly stated rules on these can be a good way to form a team that becomes the nucleus of the culture described. Communication is also big and I would never want a program that is so strict on its rules that it makes kids feel like they can't openly communicate with their coaching staff or feel that the rules are so rigid there are no exceptions. Somewhere in there there's a fine balance of rules and culture that makes a great team environment.

I likewise don't believe in cuts, but do believe in kicking people off the team.

If you have a big team, I think you want to treat your A team/varsity like it's a big deal. Have them go to some invitationals without taking the whole team. This makes it clear that you are still a competitive team and it incentivizes the kids who care about improving that there is a point to beating the 50 other kids on the B team.

I remember we had a huge team and I think having more people bear witness to the A team doing well helped create bigger respect for the sport in the school. When we would get a soccer or lacrosse player crosstraining in an offseason and welcome them to the team, it also helped those jocks respect our team to routinely get whooped by us.

It's also worth noting that often some of the slowest runners on teams are the most loved. People stick around and cheer for that last guy/girl to cross the line. Everyone respects a person trying their best, even if they are slow. So I would definitely only cut people if they disre

crisscrosscountry wrote:I agree that this is a great approach over the strict "my way or the highway" model but I think laying down some basic ground rules is a great way to instill that culture if it doesn't already exist. Attendance and attitude are probably the biggest things to bed into a team and I think having clearly stated rules on these can be a good way to form a team that becomes the nucleus of the culture described. Communication is also big and I would never want a program that is so strict on its rules that it makes kids feel like they can't openly communicate with their coaching staff or feel that the rules are so rigid there are no exceptions. Somewhere in there there's a fine balance of rules and culture that makes a great team environment.

Agreed. When we were trying to build the culture we were stricter on some attendance pieces. That was tough and it took 2 or 3 really tough, miserable years of holding kids accountable before we could relax in some areas. Now we've had results long enough that kids respect it for the most part because they know if you show up consistently and put in the work, you will get results. There are kids from time to time that can be doing more and we have individual conversations with those kids, but ultimately it's up to them to make the decision to commit and make getting better a priority.

And honestly if maximizing your athletic ability isn't your top priority, that's not the end of the world either. Learning to prioritize is a huge life skill and most high school girls won't become pros in running. As long as you are honest with yourself and coaches about what you want to get out of the sport and you are giving to the team in a positive manner, it's ok for running to not always be their top priority. I have a senior that is super into orchestra and will likely never race varsity but she's shaved 2 minutes off her 3200, can lead and pace a workout group perfectly, and drives a carpool of 4 younger girls to offseason conditioning. She gives so much to our program even though this isn't her number one priority - we would miss out on kids like her if we were stricter.

We do several special things with our top group. The varsity group gets a special uniform for big meets and they get to do one overnight trip. I don't find anything wrong with rewarding commitment and excellence. We do make sure to celebrate accomplishments at all levels as well though - whether that is a PR, team trophy, a new long run distance, or someone demonstrating great leadership.

Our new challenge is that the top group have become so committed that I think it scares some talented but less confident athletes from coming out for the team. Trying to reach those kids is the goal - any ideas on how to grow there would be appreciated!

What nobody seems to be thinking about is, what creates the best experience for the kids involved? How does a cut/attendance policy serve that goal?

Our high school team was a bit of a cult. Coach had a strong personality, ran every run/workout, and we had 80+ guys out for cross and maybe half that for track. Very successful--20+ state titles in 30 years, usually 1-2 college runners per year. Everyone ran in dual meets; coach chose 7 for varsity at invitationals and everyone else ran JV, with a couple of out-of-state trips for varsity. Everyone ran and did workouts together. No cuts and most guys ran all four years even if they never sniffed the varsity. Quite a few improved to varsity as seniors after middling results as underclassmen.

Most importantly, it instilled a lifelong love of running for many of us, through age, injuries, etc. To me, that's the best measure of the quality of the experience.

Yeah, I think that's what people are missing. You can delude yourself and think you are "teaching a lesson" to a kid that missed 1 practice and now goes from being on a team to doing nothing, maybe getting an after school job, whatever... but you've taught him that people are jerks and some people when given the tiniest bit of power will wield it like they are a czar.

Obviously you shouldn't keep kids that are misbehaving, continually missing practice, or causing problems on the team, but I think those that think they are teaching a kid something by holding them to some crazy attendance standard, sometimes over things totally out of their control, are misguided. Love to hear what some kids that were cut for missing 1 day say they "learned".

GetOverYourSelf wrote:

Yeah, I think that's what people are missing. You can delude yourself and think you are "teaching a lesson" to a kid that missed 1 practice and now goes from being on a team to doing nothing, maybe getting an after school job, whatever... but you've taught him that people are jerks and some people when given the tiniest bit of power will wield it like they are a czar.

Obviously you shouldn't keep kids that are misbehaving, continually missing practice, or causing problems on the team, but I think those that think they are teaching a kid something by holding them to some crazy attendance standard, sometimes over things totally out of their control, are misguided. Love to hear what some kids that were cut for missing 1 day say they "learned".

Other than Newton, who has retired, did anyone state that they do this?

Having no standards doesn't make sense. If you don't have to show up for practice X% of the time, don't have to run some very basic minimum time or show that you're trying your best to hit that basic minimum time, how does that fit into the educational setting at all? What other sports team or class allows you to miss practice at will and essentially be there for social reasons? Would that fly in math class? The basketball team? Choir? Dance?

Schools hold students to certain standards because it's known that the majority of kids CAN hit those standards if they must, but they WON'T hit those standards if they don't have to in order to move on to the next grade. In general, people, like all things in the natural world will do just enough to get by and no more than that, which makes sense from an energy stand point as that's the most economical thing to do.

I say put standards in place and let the kids know if those standards aren't meant they will be cut, but also 100% welcome to come try out again the next season.

Too hard Harry. You obviously don't coach and sound bitter about your high school eexperience. Kids should want to be on the team and enough to do a little training over the summer. Summer jobs are not an excuse. They shouldn't be made to attend practice over summer, but they should run. It's a varsity sport, not a walking/jogging club!

If you cut a young athlete, then they have zero chance to learn, develop, change their attitude.

It's a no-cut sport because there are only about 120 enrolled, and so whoever wants to run runs. The big challenge is remaining an 11 player football team with 22 on the varsity roster.

gdeegz wrote:

If you cut a young athlete, then they have zero chance to learn, develop, change their attitude.

If you've been cut from XC, in 99% of cases that result is well-earned and probably long-overdue.

The bar is so friggin low in almost all cases that, if you cannot get over it....thats on you.

Go try out for soccer or basketball and get back to us about how sad it is that some no talent shlub with a bad attitude has been cut.

We aren't asking much...

Come to practice

Go through the motions.

That level of minimal expectation is so low that if you cannot meet it, nobody should have one dam* ounce of sympathy.

gdeegz wrote:

If you cut a young athlete, then they have zero chance to learn, develop, change their attitude.

Does this not hold true in every sport and every class that young student-athlete will ever be enrolled in? Yet, if they aren't showing up and aren't upholding their grade to a certain standard, what happens to them? They get cut, right? So why is XC the one sport that should have no standards?

Y'all want to treat XC like it's the guy or gal that has zero self-confidence and will accept any potential significant other no matter how bad for them they are.

Me? I say we are the best damn team on campus year in and year out. A team that people love being a part of. You think you deserve to be on this team if you only want to give 50% effort? Not having any part of that.

I think logistics might have something to do with it. What's my budget? How many buses will I have access to? Where are we allowed to train (on campus only, or both on and off campus?)? If those are somewhat limited you might have to cut, but maybe tell kids that get cut they can come train and race invitationals (have to pay their way)? At my old high school there's almost no place to train for cross and because some guy's mom fussed about twenty years ago they aren't allowed to even train on the dirt roads only a mile or so from campus (we used to just jog there)...so now it's the parking lot, and a short grass loop over and over and over and over and over and over...so external factors like that, budget, etc, would probably determine the size of the team...

Best not cut anyone from any sport. The millennials are parents now. They raise their children the same way they were raised.

No competition, no keeping score , and everybody gets a trophy regardless of their participation. And if you as a coach try to change it, you end up in court.

I went to a youth soccer game and the facility director suggested not to cheer when a team scores.

I've coached XC for 22 years and T&F for 37 years. I've never had a performance standard or qualifying run/race to make a team. It wouldn't be consistent with my purpose as a coach. There are two major things I hope each of my athletes take away from their sports experience regardless of their achievement level:

* Making a commitment to something means making sacrifices necessary to keep that commitment.

* You are capable of achieving more than you imagine when you make a real long term commitment to a goal.

Over the years I have cut one athlete and suspended 3 for a week. All of the suspended athletes were underclassmen and did not return the following year. The athlete I cut was a 3rd year participant in XC who skipped 2 meets without an excuse and was going through the motions in practices - he clearly didn't want to be there and I didn't want an upperclassman around the team setting that kind of example. After the 3rd suspension, I realized that I minimal influence on a kid who isn't present and haven't done that again.

Fortunately, I stepped into a program with a fair amount of success and a community that values hard work. We have a lot of rules/requirements that would not fly in other communities. Kids who don't want to commit to our team rules/standards of behavior don't come out, so it eliminates many hard calls that would exist with starting a similar program without that culture.

There are situations where cuts are necessary. For the safety and well-being of the athletes there has to be a limit to the coach:athlete ratio. Years ago I remember talking to a coach who had been a student-athlete at Long Beach Poly where there are more than 1000 kids in each graduating class. There would be no way to handle a team of 500 kids that might occur if they kept everyone who wanted to come out for track & field - facilities/equipment limitations are real, too.

Be clear on your purpose as a coach and set standards accordingly, but I would remind you that you will have little to no influence on a kid who is cut.

Great thread with some really thoughtful replies...that are different enough to remind me that different things work for different people (in different situations).

As a college coach (D1 and D3, 20+ years) this question was one I worked on for many years. I won't go into detail, beyond agreeing with an earlier poster who said that communication is expected. Yes, it is really possible for something to come up for the HS or college athlete, and I don't want her/him lying to me about it--so, at least at one point, what I said was that I had to hear from you every day. Didn't need to hear the reason/excuse/lie? about why you wouldn't be at practice, but you had to be in touch with me. If you couldn't make that much commitment to the team...

I think this made sense to most, and the no-show/no-communicate kids were making a decision to walk away. But, again, they were college students (some were complete beginners in the sport, though), and presumably better able to make mature decisions.

I'm now an assistant and do not have any role in setting practice/attendance policies. I'm not sure that the head coach even has explicit policies. It's certainly true that many of our students are inconsistent with attendance--most have family responsibilities, substantial work hours, and so on--but the head's kinda laissez-faire approach seems to work: We won conference championships indoors and out this year.

So I'm still learning (and rambling). Thanks again to all for your input.