Those were the days, the 1999 World Championships 5000m

Doped to the Max wrote:

[quote]Subway Surfers wrote:

Man!...did El G smoke this field...what happened to head-twisting Cacho? It's been while since I watched this race but I remember it back in 99. Btw, El G's pacer was Adil Kaouch - busted for EPO OOC several years later (2007).

https://youtu.be/UVzdFUMQN6M

Kaouch, that's the man, barely a pacer here but by 2006 he was beating sub 12:50 guys over the short course WCC.

Coevett wrote:

Subway Surfers wrote:

Someone can post the clip but if I can recall correctly Brendan Foster went "oh no" as soon as the pacer went to the front on the 1st lap. Didn't that guy (the pacer) get busted?

Here is the Foster/Cram commentary - it was actually Crammy who called out the pacemaker. Check out the commentators below the video accusing him of being jealous of El G. Actually, Cram has always been very respectful about El G (and Morceli). Don't know if he genuinely thought they were clean, or maybe he presumed their innocence until Ramzi started to make it all too obvious.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6jrqsbD3Pc

My mistake it was Cram who was disappointed. El Guerrouj did look fantastic in full stride, but often that is the biggest red flag (all day to train and work on your technique).

How is it cheating to use team tactics in a global championship?

feeding frederik wrote:

How is it cheating to use team tactics in a global championship?

Well if it's not against the rules then it's against the spirit. Especially when the guy was subsequently banned for doping and his presence in that final not only aided El G to win, but denied another athlete an appearance in the final.

I can't really explain that further. If it means nothing to you then we simply inhabit different moral worlds. And it is another little bit of circumstantial evidence that El G was doping himself that not only was one of his teammates in the World Championship final a doper, but that doper was willing to sacrifice himself just so that El G had a better chance of winning.

The guy basically doped so that he could help El G win and bring 'glory to the King of Morocco'. They were training partners under the same GDR like Moroccan system, and there are still people here who think the guy who was the ultimate end product of it all was clean???

feeding frederik wrote:

How is it cheating to use team tactics in a global championship?

Athletics is an individual sport, not a team sport. It's not fair against the competitors when one athlete is trying to help one of his "teammates" .

I've always had some problems with Kip Keino's 1500m Gold in Mexico when Ben Jipcho sacrificed his own chances (at least that's what I think he has, also Keino claims that's not true) while helping Keino with a fast pace.

Haha wait how is his setting a fast pace circumstantial evidence that El G was doping? It's evidence that El G had better chances in a fast race - something everyone in the world knew/knows. If you make the final, I think you can use team tactics. He didn't steal anyone's spot - he qualified over those other athletes and earned the right to make the pace fast.

If I have no chance of winning I'm going to try to help my training partner beat his rivals. You don't think the Ethiopian 10,000 meter runners used team tactics to beat the Kenyans, Ugandans and Eritreans?

said88 wrote:

feeding frederik wrote:

How is it cheating to use team tactics in a global championship?

Athletics is an individual sport, not a team sport. It's not fair against the competitors when one athlete is trying to help one of his "teammates" .

I've always had some problems with Kip Keino's 1500m Gold in Mexico when Ben Jipcho sacrificed his own chances (at least that's what I think he has, also Keino claims that's not true) while helping Keino with a fast pace.

Yeah....I don't agree.

coach wrote:

If I have no chance of winning I'm going to try to help my training partner beat his rivals. You don't think the Ethiopian 10,000 meter runners used team tactics to beat the Kenyans, Ugandans and Eritreans?

For sure you can do this - I wouldn't. Every competitor should try to achieve the best possible for HIMSELF.

For sure Ethiopians (and also Kenyans) did this several times.

Coevett is clueless when it comes to top-level T&F.

Blacko wrote:

feeding frederik wrote:

Haha wait how is his setting a fast pace circumstantial evidence that El G was doping? It's evidence that El G had better chances in a fast race - something everyone in the world knew/knows. If you make the final, I think you can use team tactics. He didn't steal anyone's spot - he qualified over those other athletes and earned the right to make the pace fast.

Coevett is clueless when it comes to top-level T&F.

Not the 1980s era?

Nxjdk wrote:

What a close from Limo. Impressive.

Limo's role was to pace Daniel Komen which he did. Remember before that race, Komen was untouchable where Gebrsillasie was absent. So when it was time for Komen to take off for victory(with about 4 laps to go), he did not pull away and were caught by the Salah Hissou and Lalafi and the Mourit. By that time Limo was already tired from pacing and so he just tried to keep up with the leaders while hoping Komen would bounce back and go for the win. Finally at around 200m he decided to chase the trio leaders. Had he started that earlier, he would have won probably won the race.

El Guerrouj is more clean than Sebastian Coe ever was, and that is a fact.

El G is the GOAT. He was tested more than anyone in history, was honored by all his peers. I remember chatting with Steve Holmann on a TrackandFieldNews tour VIP event and he said El G was clean and unbeatable.

Very well constructed post. Agreed.

;lkl wrote:

El Guerrouj is more clean than Sebastian Coe ever was, and that is a fact.

El G is the GOAT. He was tested more than anyone in history, was honored by all his peers. I remember chatting with Steve Holmann on a TrackandFieldNews tour VIP event and he said El G was clean and unbeatable.

Uh-huh. Riiiiiiight.

Destroyed all others. Every race fast- and raced often. Multiple training partners busted. His Coach Kada a notorious proponent of doping. Moroccan.

All you need is a yellow rubber band bracelet, and you've got the North African version of Armstrong.

;lkl wrote:

El Guerrouj is more clean than Sebastian Coe ever was, and that is a fact.

El G is the GOAT. He was tested more than anyone in history, was honored by all his peers. I remember chatting with Steve Holmann on a TrackandFieldNews tour VIP event and he said El G was clean and unbeatable.

Yep. Clean like Lance "I Never Failed A Test" Armstrong.

Coevett wrote:

How many of those guys got busted later on? Hissou sure did, didn't he?

totorious wrote:

No.

Exactly. I'm pretty sure it was Seb Coe and Steve Ovett who were busted.

Hope you're a troll wrote:

;lkl wrote:

El Guerrouj is more clean than Sebastian Coe ever was, and that is a fact.

El G is the GOAT. He was tested more than anyone in history, was honored by all his peers. I remember chatting with Steve Holmann on a TrackandFieldNews tour VIP event and he said El G was clean and unbeatable.

Uh-huh. Riiiiiiight.

Destroyed all others. Every race fast- and raced often. Multiple training partners busted. His Coach Kada a notorious proponent of doping. Moroccan.

All you need is a yellow rubber band bracelet, and you've got the North African version of Armstrong.

Great point: Rashid Ramzi (3:29.14/CERA), Amine Laâlou (3:29.53/EPO) & Adil Kaouch (3:31.10/EPO).

That's three (3) out of Morocco's top 6 all-time fastest 1500 guys.

Benjiman Limo wrote:

Nxjdk wrote:

What a close from Limo. Impressive.

...Remember before that race, Komen was untouchable where Gebrsillasie was absent. ....

Not really. In 96/97, yes, but after the spring of 98 he wasn't the same athlete. By the 99 WC he was nowhere near the 7:20/12:39 guy he'd been.