This was a crazy week for Tinman-style coaching

exactly it wrote:

crete wrote:

I can only speak about my own training experience ... but I have noticed that Daniels style vo2max intervals lead to burning out and a short season. That's why I always boggle at the people on this site that say you need 5x1k on 60s rest, 3-4x mile on 1-1.5m rest. That is always a recipe for disaster.

No, you just said exactly what Tinman workouts are - 5-8x1k with 60s rest, 3-4x mile with 60-90s rest. People just run them too fast. You run that workout at VO2, burnout happens. You run that workout at critical velocity effort, you get his results. His training system is built around the CV ideology

That's the thing. Tinman prescribes those workouts at a slower effort.

If that above listed workout was done via the Daniels method, it would call for I (interval) paces, and those are 5K paces. Not 30 minute race paces. Huge difference. Some athletes thrive on that, though. Others, like myself, burnout real fast.

Many people do run workouts too fast. And many others are coached to run them too fast as well.

Good coaches know that it is always better to undercook rather than overcook the workouts and the athletes. This usually requires that the sessions be individualized based on feedback. The problem with cookbooks like Daniels (which is based on sound principles), is that it aims for the middle at each level, which immediately means that ~30% are going to be training too hard. Then add in overly ambitious goals and mindsets (such as using goal pace instead of date pace), and you have a substantial number of athletes getting roasted pretty badly, especially in school programs.

Schwartz has recognized this and has dialed back the training scaffold accordingly (CV v. vO2max), and is having great success, especially with athletes that were fried a bit with older paradigms.

I am having a hard time grasping the concept in HS of using solely or even mostly CV workouts which seem to be around 10k pace instead of Daniels I pace. For younger runners (high school) it seems to me they would need to get their 5k pace dialed in better. Wouldn't CV pace lead to them being able to run a good 10k while Interval pace would be better suited for a 3200/5k? anyone else think this or am I way off base?

High school wrote:

I am having a hard time grasping the concept in HS of using solely or even mostly CV workouts which seem to be around 10k pace instead of Daniels I pace. For younger runners (high school) it seems to me they would need to get their 5k pace dialed in better. Wouldn't CV pace lead to them being able to run a good 10k while Interval pace would be better suited for a 3200/5k? anyone else think this or am I way off base?

I think this is a sound theory. In practice, it often tends to be too much. I mostly speak from the experience of a 90s high school runner. VO2 workouts multiple times a week, week after week, and pretty much everyone under-performed in races. We all under-performed in relation to what workouts we were doing.

For the teams that use this style of training, it seems to work great. The kids touch on speed with strides and things, they have rather large aerobic bases (for high schoolers who are not in Kenya, at least), and they still race often. I think that is key. Many schools still race twice a week. That is plenty of time for the kids to develop race strategies and hit on the VO2 max type stuff.

In a perfect world, a season of workouts do lead up to a lot of work at race pace. I think that is super hard to individualize for most regular athletes, and certainly really hard for a team of many different kids. The Tinman setup keeps teams fresher and sets them up for success. Didn't the Hunters just say something about how no one runs their best at championship races. And they just won a championship where this was again true. So without burning kids up, you have the highest chance of some kids getting good races in.

High school wrote:

I am having a hard time grasping the concept in HS of using solely or even mostly CV workouts which seem to be around 10k pace instead of Daniels I pace. For younger runners (high school) it seems to me they would need to get their 5k pace dialed in better. Wouldn't CV pace lead to them being able to run a good 10k while Interval pace would be better suited for a 3200/5k? anyone else think this or am I way off base?

The kids race 5K almost every week. THAT is their vO2max training. Add on some 10K/tempo stuff and some low-stress hill/speed work and you have a well-rounded endurance athlete.

If they had only one or two races a season then some 5K pace work would be called for. As it stands they get plenty of 5K work via the races.

I'm not convinced that Tinman training is anything revolutionary, nor is it optimum for elites males. I respect Tinman and his athletes, they are obviously doing very well. I also firmly believe that his training would work wonders at most colleges and bring their teams up to at least NCAA qualifying and maybe top 10 in any division. His critical pace aerobic max workouts are great and very important.

However, I would like to learn more about the specific workouts, as obviously those are important too. Just look at how many ridiculous sessions the NOP and Bowerman groups put in, and others on Flotrack like Cheserek etc.

Finally, I would bring into question the pace on normal runs. The groups I mentioned above do not run 7 min miles on every easy day, as they spend inordinate amounts of time running "Badger miles" or 6:00 pace or faster on "easy" days. Can you run a sub 13:00 5k by jogging 4x a week? I think the answer is no. However, some elite milers get away with easy easy days.

Workouts: Vo2 max reps 1 min duration, 30 sec rec + hills

K reps 1 min recovery+hills

mile reps 1 min recovery+hills

tempos

That's it.

So the U.S. marathon champion and the #2 1500 U.S. performer for 2018 are not "elite males"? This board is beyond the pale.

sdfsdfsdsfsdfds wrote:

Workouts: Vo2 max reps 1 min duration, 30 sec rec + hills

K reps 1 min recovery+hills

mile reps 1 min recovery+hills

tempos

That's it.

What kind of hill repeats do Tinman-trained athletes do? Any info on length/steepness.

Are the K/mile reps at CV pace?

Anywhere from 10-60sec in length

mbnjgjdks wrote:

sdfsdfsdsfsdfds wrote:

Workouts: Vo2 max reps 1 min duration, 30 sec rec + hills

K reps 1 min recovery+hills

mile reps 1 min recovery+hills

tempos

That's it.

What kind of hill repeats do Tinman-trained athletes do? Any info on length/steepness.

Are the K/mile reps at CV pace?

Brogan Austin’s ‘CV’ days involved something like 7x3min @ CV pace, 7x30s hill reps ~4% grade at around mile effort, and then 7x20s @ 800m effort or something similar.

So 21 reps of work, but most aren’t crazy intense or long. It appears he did this type of workout a few times a month mixed in with weekly long runs (often doubling on long run days to get ~24-30 miles in that day), and some longer tempos or LT repeats during medium long runs etc. and a Fartlek of 10x20s on, 40s off once or twice a week.

kindasorta wrote:

exactly it wrote:

No, you just said exactly what Tinman workouts are - 5-8x1k with 60s rest, 3-4x mile with 60-90s rest. People just run them too fast. You run that workout at VO2, burnout happens. You run that workout at critical velocity effort, you get his results. His training system is built around the CV ideology

That's the thing. Tinman prescribes those workouts at a slower effort.

If that above listed workout was done via the Daniels method, it would call for I (interval) paces, and those are 5K paces. Not 30 minute race paces. Huge difference. Some athletes thrive on that, though. Others, like myself, burnout real fast.

Many people do run workouts too fast. And many others are coached to run them too fast as well.

Daniels would also prescribe a 1:1 work:rest ratio for I pace. So those 1ks would have more like 3 min of rest.

I agree with YMMV response to this and would like to add to it.

Tinman already coaches the #2 US miler and marathon champ. And the marathon champ came out of nowhere this year to run 2:12.

But you seem to be making this argument:

'Yes, while Tinman can get a lot of "bang for his buck" with training, at a certain point to be the best you have to do monster workouts and train exceedingly hard. Look at the crazy workouts the Bowerman runners do (Shweizer trains harder than Drew Hunter on Strava for example) or Galen Rupp has been rumored to do. While Tinman gets runners to 3:35 and 2:12, his training won't get you to 12:56 or 26:44, because to be that good you have to train harder.'

You could be right. But really, I think we will have a pretty good answer in the next few years. Tinman has started coaching enough elite runners, that if he is as good as he says he is, he will have runners on Olympic teams.

And if Brogan Austin is beating Chris Derrick or Sam Parsons is beating Ryan Hill or Eric Jenkins (just examples), then it will be impossible to make your argument. They are not there yet, but it no longer seams completely ludicrous, which is a feat in and of itself.

Mahavishnu1500 wrote:

Finally, I would bring into question the pace on normal runs. The groups I mentioned above do not run 7 min miles on every easy day, as they spend inordinate amounts of time running "Badger miles" or 6:00 pace or faster on "easy" days. Can you run a sub 13:00 5k by jogging 4x a week? I think the answer is no. However, some elite milers get away with easy easy days.

I know that they run recovery days at legitimate recovery pace, but I think it is a mistake to assume that they are just jogging around on every non-workout day. I know someone that Tinman coached years ago, and his schedule, especially during base phase, contained non-workout days where the runs were supposed to be "moderate" and some of his long runs had a chunk of the mileage at "moderate" effort. There were also strides on a lot of non-workout days.

ThatAverageRunner wrote:

Brogan Austin’s ‘CV’ days involved something like 7x3min @ CV pace, 7x30s hill reps ~4% grade at around mile effort, and then 7x20s @ 800m effort or something similar.

So 21 reps of work, but most aren’t crazy intense or long. It appears he did this type of workout a few times a month mixed in with weekly long runs (often doubling on long run days to get ~24-30 miles in that day), and some longer tempos or LT repeats during medium long runs etc. and a Fartlek of 10x20s on, 40s off once or twice a week.

Exactly what I took away from following Brogan Austin's training and listening to a bunch of Tinman interviews etc. Very similar week after week.

Monday: Easy w/Strides 10x20sec

Tues: 7x3min at CV, 7x30sec Hills, 7x20sec Strides (sometimes it was 5x5min, or 6x3min etc)

Wed: Easy

Thurs: Easy w/10x20sec Strides

Friday: Easy

Sat: Long Run. Starting at 90sec slower than MP, usually progressing to 20~40sec/mi slower than MP throughout the run.

Run a 5K, plug your result into the Tinman calculator on his website and you get your training paces.

Occasionally there was a short tempo on Tuesday at CV instead of the intervals, and sometimes a short 10x1min fartlek at the end of the week.. but nothing crazy.

Listening to Tinman's reasoning for CV workouts, slow on easy days, and wide variety of paces on workout days, it makes sense. More sense than a lot of coaches tend to make when they throw out workouts. Generally, the CV pace stimulated certain muscle fibers that were prone to strengthen quicker. Running slow ensured less glycogen depletion, which helped ensure higher quality workouts on the hard days. Not a lot of marathon pace workouts since "marathon pace" is mental thing, not necessarily a physiological thing.

There are coaches having success all over. Tinman isn't winning everything, but I suppose it's a matter of finding a coach that speaks your language, so to speak. If you agree with his concepts, I think it's a great approach to take.

At some point, it's the chef, not the recipe.

Jeff Stiles of Wash U in St. Louis was on the forefront of CV training and has been using it for over a decade.

It looks like I (we?) do not have enough data on Tinman's training and long term results to draw any conclusions. Lets call my post "concerns" based on very limited information. I am no longer an elite runner and do not know anyone in Tinman's inner circle. Whatever they are doing is working, and in regards to Drew Hunter, I would assume he is a super talent. It took me about 10 years of hard training to get to where Drew got in high school, so there's certainly some enmity and jealousy on my part for not having the talent and coaching he did at a young age. I wish Tinmans group only success. I will point out that America had a rough year in the men's 1500m and our marathon struggles continue compared to the plethora of East Africans running 2:0_, and we have like one sub 2:10 guy born in America currently competing as an elite. I hope we continue to improve and I hope we can learn more about Tinman's training.

I know that they run recovery days at legitimate recovery pace, but I think it is a mistake to assume that they are just jogging around on every non-workout day. I know someone that Tinman coached years ago, and his schedule, especially during base phase, contained non-workout days where the runs were supposed to be "moderate" and some of his long runs had a chunk of the mileage at "moderate" effort. There were also strides on a lot of non-workout days.[/quote]

Thanks for the info. I think some of the articles I have read about Tinman may be misleading. The Brojos are partial to jogging 7 min miles on easy days and I think their bias comes into play in some of their writings.