Is there such a thing as training too slow on LSDs/maintenance runs?

About 17 years ago when I was getting some advice from Barry Magee, who almost never spoke about running particular times or paces, he made an exception and suggested that I do a "quality" two hour run in which I'd cover 21 kilometers. At the time I could run around 3 hours for marathons, so that particular run would have been at a pace that was an hour slower than my marathons for half the distance. Yet Barry considered that a quality run. And now I can only look at that as training where I used to be.

I had to laugh when I read your response. Some of the kids I coach I have their non easy long run at 1.15 of their race pace. So a 2:20 runner would run it at 6:00 pace. It’s hard enough to tax the systems yet not that draining. A great way to combine them is to run an hour at 8:00 pace followed by an hour at 6:00 and then do 20:00 at 8:00.. So you get to run at your projected marathon total time. An excellent practice

Only if you humblebrag about it on LRC.

I didn’t intend to “humblebrag” whatever that’s supposed to be. I was just supporting what HRE stared. A 3:00 marathon runner doing 8:00 pace is almost exactly a 1.15% of their race pace. Many athletes and coaches have come to the same conclusions on these issues. The math side of it is 180 divided by 26.2 =6.9x 1.15% = 8:00 (naturally it’s all rounded off). Likewise the 140 divided by 26.2 =5.3x1.15%= 6:00 (once again rounded off). Longer runs are normally spoken of in general time terms unlike shorter intervals. I would say 6:00 pace instead of 6.24 for the long runs. The short say 400 intervals would be more precise- say 68-70. I think he was telling HRE run by feel, but it probably should be in that range. Keep in mind back then there were not GPS watches and in most cases if you used a stopwatch it was the old fashioned on a string.

800 dude wrote:

The mistake is putting every run that isn't a "workout" into the same LSD/maintenance bucket. There's room in a training schedule for a range of paces slower than MP.

If you're going 3 minutes/mile slower than MP, that's not "maintaining" anything. That's basically a recovery run.

.... Recovery running could be 90 seconds slower than MP, if it's not too long.

If you want to get an aerobic stimulus from your non-workout days, you should be running much faster than your recovery pace. Within around 40 seconds/mile of your MP. That's the very outer edge of when blood lactate levels will creep above baseline and muscle oxygen will start to dip (actually if you're in true PR marathon shape, you'd have to go faster still, but if you're in the middle of training and a ways from your goal race, 40 seconds is fine).

I cut and pasted sections of this post because I liked the points it made about the different benefits from different paces.

I do think that there is a cost-balance equation associated with easy run pace - one that generates different answers for different runners. A more aggressive pace gives an aerobic stimulus, but at the cost of fatigue and interference with recovery. I personally run my non-workout days very slowly - usually around 9:00-9:30 pace (MP is 6:47). That's because I've learned that if I run my easy days faster than that, I gradually dig a hole.

OTOH, I'm sure there are runners who recover better than me who would be leaving something on the table if they ran their easy days as slow as I did. And there's also runners who would get stale if they ran that slow - Greg McMillan has a good article on this -

However, I do think that those who run faster on their easy days would benefit from some self-examination - are you running that fast because you've experimented with different paces, and found that your training benefits the most from that pace? Or are you running that fast because of confidence issues/insecurity?

If the latter, then you need to fix that - both because your training might benefit from a different non-workout pace and because developing confidence and security in your choice of effort/pace is a skill that carries over to racing, especially the marathon.

Peter Snell told me once that as long as you are able to do your normal runs from day to day you aren't running too fast. But if you find yourself frequently needing to take easy or rest days or to shorten runs it meant you were running too fast. He also thought, probably still does, that for certain kinds of muscle development you couldn't go much slower than 7:00 pace but this really leads into another topic. Personally, over the decades I did loads of different things in terms of paces on my runs and found that none of them seemed to make any difference. The only thing that really seemed to matter for me was doing a lot of running and doing "preparation" races to sharpen for the ones I wanted to do well in.

if you are a runner of any quality, you don' t ever run 7 min miles., unless you're warming down or coming off a severe workout.

if you need to push to make 630 miles, well, you're going too hard overall.

of course this advise applies to young men and older that have run for a couple of years.

While I understand the wisdom of not beating oneself up on easy/recovery days, I find that if I go slower than a certain speed -for me this is around 7:30 pace- I can't keep a running motion. I feel like I've "got the brakes on," so to speak, and have to literally drag my feet and add in extraneous motions just to keep from going faster. Moving at that pace is biomechanically so different from my other training paces -not to mention race paces- that I feel like it has little to no relation to actual running, and therefore no carryover. Or does it? Anyone else have this issue with slow running?

I also find that running too slow screws up my biomechanics . This mainly happens if, like you, I run with others who are really slow - my running is not smooth at this pace and it's uncomfortable.

The post above is the only one to touch on what would be my answer: form. The running movement changes with speed, and as you slow way down, the changes can become dramatic. LSD runs are too slow when your form becomes so different from your MP form that you're training different areas of your legs. From what I've seen, that's somewhere approaching 3 min or more slower than MP. At that point, you are still getting some of the endurance benefits from the LSD run (so it isn't worthless), but you've gone too far and aren't getting the muscle work you need.

lwoodhouse wrote:

I'm training for a marathon, and I run routinely at 30-90 seconds slower than marathon pace, with one day of intervals every week for speed work (I also do tempo runs for 10% of my long runs).

For a 3-hour marathoner JD calculator would put easy pace at +50-90 seconds to MP and Tinman calculator at whole 2 minutes slower. Now some people find jack Daniels easy pace OK, there are even those who run their weekly bulk faster than that and seem fine over a course of several months. There are however people, I've seen them around the boards and am one of them myself, who find JD easy rather brisk and wouldn't run at this intensity outside of quality sessions. Tinman easy however is the pace I am very comfortable at - can do a 20-miler any day regardless if the sleep was disturbed or not and if it's +25 or -25 C outside. If one of the most fashionable coaches of the day trains his elites at such a slow pace, why would I be bothered if I do the same huh.

I startymy reply with “as long as you can keep a running motion” I’m fortunate enough to be able to retain my same motion regardless of my speed with no noticeable “breaking action” 10,000 years ago when I was racing most of my runs were in the 8-9 minute per mile pace. From that I was able to attain reasonable success for that era. Now a 2:20-2:30 marathon runner some feel is a hobby jogger. My hardest race was when I was in sub 2:20 shape and tried to pace my girlfriend to run a 3:00 marathon- it was total hell- not my 8-9 mile training pace nor was it my racing pace. I was sore for a week. We all have our comfort zones. Part is because of your physical and psychological makeup, but part is your life factors. If you have to fit your run in a specific slot (work or whatever) that’s a factor. I did my morning run today at 3am because I had a commitment at 6:30. You can do wonders if you just follow what works for you.

Lydiard told me that many believed his program endorsed long slow distance running. But he didn't . However, he did say that one would get benefit from running even running at a very slow pace. Training for races is totally different. He did say that one could damage one's entire week of running if the long run was done at an anaerobic pace rather than an aerobic one as the runner would not recover to run the harder workouts during the ensuing week. One must remember that one's aerobic pace can be someone else's anaerobic one.

I think you can run your easy miles too slowly for optimum benefit but that most people tend to run their easy runs too hard so having friends slow you down for ten or twenty of the 60 plus miles you are running in marathon training every week is more likely to be helpful than harmful.

Maybe try adding it to your coffee you farty fart head.

If you really want to find out experiment...see how your buildup goes running some of your runs slow or truly easy than next time around do all your runs at a pace that doesn't ever make you freak out....see what happens. Or just watch a Tinman video.

I run too fast on LSDs. Mostly because I am trying to get away from the neon spiders that are chasing me.