Loudoun Valley Boys Score 16 Today at State Meet. Is it Tinman Training?

Short answer, yes.

Scarecrow. Lion. wrote:

Should all high school coaches use CV workouts? Is it time to drink the kool-aid?

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Let's not forget a shout-out to those Loudoun Valley girls, too. After four straight years finishing second at the VA State Meet, they beat Blacksburg by four points, denying them a state record-breaking eighth girls' team title in a row.

Did Loudoun Valley boys and girls win with Tinman-influenced/inspired training? It's OK to say yes, because Marc and Joan Hunter are perceptive coaches with successful Tinman connections in the family. However, let's give at least a little credit to the Hunters for their all-round coaching style, and to a bunch of kids who bought into the full package and delivered on this big stage.

Also, a shout out to all of their transfers!

People overrate the effects of different training methods. So long as a coach doesn't burn out his runners the results will be the same. LV scored 16 because they have talented runners and there have been hundreds of great runners that didn't attend LV.

The main difference in success is the ability to motivate the kids with potential to join the team.

it is not just the cv workouts

many coaches use them with no results or worse, with injuries

lv is doing it right + they do some other things, not just cv

the coach is an important ingredient and some coaches are simply more talented

adjusting cv to a variety of factors is not trivial

but i agree that lv and tinman are a good combo

They´re pretty transparent about their program too. If you google-search & letsrun-search, you´ll find-out a lot about their program.

Their mileage is healthy. The top kids do a some two-a-days to get to their top mileage of 60+ miles a week.

They do some weightroom too (without too much emphasis).

CV Workouts + Healthy Mileage + Weightroom = NXN Champions?

Scarecrow. Lion. wrote:

They´re pretty transparent about their program too. If you google-search & letsrun-search, you´ll find-out a lot about their program.

Their mileage is healthy. The top kids do a some two-a-days to get to their top mileage of 60+ miles a week.

They do some weightroom too (without too much emphasis).

CV Workouts + Healthy Mileage + Weightroom = NXN Champions?

What you described in the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs is pretty much what everyone does. I did.

SDSU Aztec wrote:

Scarecrow. Lion. wrote:

They´re pretty transparent about their program too. If you google-search & letsrun-search, you´ll find-out a lot about their program.

Their mileage is healthy. The top kids do a some two-a-days to get to their top mileage of 60+ miles a week.

They do some weightroom too (without too much emphasis).

CV Workouts + Healthy Mileage + Weightroom = NXN Champions?

What you described in the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs is pretty much what everyone does. I did.

You would think Paragraphs 2 & 3 are the norm, but it´s not.

As a high school coach, I hear a lot about other programs in my area & what we´re describing only feels like the norm in the letsrun world. (In full disclosure, my runners do NOT do two-a-days. I think high schoolers struggle with getting enough sleep.)

I know Tinman doesn´t necessarily agree with two-a-days either. From what I´ve read & heard on podcasts, he suggests getting kids to run 60 minutes a day + a Long Run (90 minutes is what I think he suggests) is good enough. He´d rather have them a wee bit undertrained than to push them too much.

Scarecrow. Lion. wrote:

SDSU Aztec wrote:

What you described in the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs is pretty much what everyone does. I did.

You would think Paragraphs 2 & 3 are the norm, but it´s not.

As a high school coach, I hear a lot about other programs in my area & what we´re describing only feels like the norm in the letsrun world. (In full disclosure, my runners do NOT do two-a-days. I think high schoolers struggle with getting enough sleep.)

I know Tinman doesn´t necessarily agree with two-a-days either. From what I´ve read & heard on podcasts, he suggests getting kids to run 60 minutes a day + a Long Run (90 minutes is what I think he suggests) is good enough. He´d rather have them a wee bit undertrained than to push them too much.

All the great HS runners from my era, including Hulst, Chapa and McChesney ran doubles and totalled 100+mph. An exception was Serna who I heard ran around 60mpw. I read that German Fernandez also ran about 60mpw so I'm not sure it makes much difference. I ran 100 mpw but now I believe I might have had the same results with only 60mpw.

As far as weight lifting goes, it's debateable whether it make any difference.

what is CV training

dbsquirtNXC21 wrote:

what is CV training

Oh, you just opened-up a can of worms, boy! Kidding...sorta.

CV stands for Critical Velocity. There´s a ton of threads on it & lots of debate about it (i.e. can of worms). Critical Velocity pace is about 10K pace. The creator of it, Tom ¨Tinman" Schwartz believes is that high-end aerobic pace repeated throughout the season can, in fact, change muscle fiber too. (Letsrun actually did an article on CV running. Google it.)

But, the main workout is 5 X 1000 @ CV Pace with :75-:90 rest + some 200´s afterwards. A lot of people have to work-up to getting to 1000 meters though. You may have to start shorter with 600´s or 800´s @ CV pace with :90 rest.

Oh yeah, Tinman has a Pace Calculator on his website too (Google it.)

But, Loudoun Valley is heavily influenced by Tinman & use his CV workout as their bread-and-butter.

So pretty much what most programs do weekly or every other week.

CV pace is not new. It's just been rebrands. Probably what many of you call cruise intervals.

Marcus Siepen wrote:

Also, a shout out to all of their transfers!

4 out of their top 7 today transferred there either last year or this year. That’s not a criticism, but it is an important observation when discussing what led to their success today.

Algonkin wrote:

Marcus Siepen wrote:

Also, a shout out to all of their transfers!

4 out of their top 7 today transferred there either last year or this year. That’s not a criticism, but it is an important observation when discussing what led to their success today.

where did they transfer from and how did they perform at their old school?

sr osly wrote:

Algonkin wrote:

4 out of their top 7 today transferred there either last year or this year. That’s not a criticism, but it is an important observation when discussing what led to their success today.

where did they transfer from and how did they perform at their old school?

good question-

prior to Loudoun Valley:

-a Footlocker finalist, 4:08, 9:02, as a sophomore

-a 16:07 as a sophomore who ran 4:28 as a freshman

-a 4:27, 9:49, 16:36 as a sophomore

-15:21, 9:37 as a sophomore

Scarecrow. Lion. wrote:

SDSU Aztec wrote:

What you described in the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs is pretty much what everyone does. I did.

You would think Paragraphs 2 & 3 are the norm, but it´s not.

As a high school coach, I hear a lot about other programs in my area & what we´re describing only feels like the norm in the letsrun world. (In full disclosure, my runners do NOT do two-a-days. I think high schoolers struggle with getting enough sleep.)

I know Tinman doesn´t necessarily agree with two-a-days either. From what I´ve read & heard on podcasts, he suggests getting kids to run 60 minutes a day + a Long Run (90 minutes is what I think he suggests) is good enough. He´d rather have them a wee bit undertrained than to push them too much.

False. Tinman thinks 60 minutes a day is enough but he would prefer it was done in doubles. He is a big proponent in the benefits of doubles. Look up what he did with Drew Hunter - he was doubling long before he got to his peak HS mileage.

Tinman did not create. He is the one who is responsible for popularizing it among the letsrun crowd.

Cv is a formula that has been used in swimming for awhile and existed in their research literature for years. Calculated by the difference in pace as you increase the racing or time trial distance. 5 minute mile and 11 minute two mile gives 6 minute per mile cv.

Cv has been known for over a decade within the field of running research as "v(delta)50" or halfway between threshold and vo2max. This is approximately 10k pace in elites. Maybe 5k pace in non elites. Search for work by billat from France for further reading.

From what I read (and it sounds like you may know more than me) on his website/messageboard, he talked about getting the AVERAGE high school kid to 60 minutes a day. I wonder if what he did for Drew Hunter was for an ELITE runner & specifically for him.

Could you link the information about Tinman´s position on doubling (that may be different from what I´ve read)?