East Africans are not genetically superior

four eyes wrote:

Of course another explanation is that East Africans could be genetically superior responders to certain substances but that's another thread and certainly can't account for all of the disparity.

Actually, the rise of the Kenyans corresponds exactly with the decision of Dr. Rosa to begin working with Kenyans. They had had great runners up to that point, but not the sheer numbers we see now. Then another fine honest fella, Hermens, begins work with the Ethiopians. Genetics are involved, but a huge element is politically protected drug use. Most of the top Africans are doped to the eyeballs, and do not have to undergo out of season surprise tests. Then if caught, it's covered up or all sorts of strange things happen a la affair Lagat.

Do the E. Africans have a good talent pool? Surely. But the situation you see now is artificial. It's as realistic as the birthdates of E. African "juniors".

Your argument is valid in a lot of comparisons but not this one. Money can be accumulated, stolen, manipulated, forged, gambled, inherited, etc. Every runner who has ever set foot on the track has done so with only two things backing them up: what they were born with and the work that they have done. In this case the vast difference in preformance IS statistically significant. Don't try to use loose similes to negate what those numbers are saying.

let wrote:

Wow, you just made my argument.

THere are otehr factors that contribute to wealth aside from a persons genetic backround!! My point is exactly that when it comes to running!! Why is it easier to except and list all of these other factors when it comes to wealth and not running?! My argument was used to point out the flaw in using statistical data to prove a point!

I can't say I understand your post. It is very very easy to distinguish how one becomes wealthy, and what contributes to that, from how one becomes a world-class athlete. The route to the top in one field says nothing about the other.

One clearly has a lot to do with genetic endowments on an individual basis, and the hard work you put in to maximize that potential.

One clearly has a lot to do with where and to whom you were born, and is not necessarily correlated with hard work over a lifetime. Picking the right parents is sufficient to make one insanely wealthy.

What exactly was your point? The analogy between the two fields makes no sense.

a repost:

Because I think what a lot of people overlook are some facts that also co-incide with the mdi 90s:

-Ethiopia's brutal dictatorship was just overthrown. This was the governemnt (the Dergu) who murdered over a million Ethiopians that were politically opposed to Mengistu -- you can't have any time of program under those conditions.

-Ethiopia had boycotted Olympics in 1976, 1984, and 1988 at a time when the Olympic were IT in athletics -- imagine the effect that would have on American track and field. Kenya had a similar experience boycotting consecutive Olympics in '76 and '80.

What's more, it wasn't until the mid90s that Grand Prix money/successive world championship races became available to motivate more runners to race and race for records.

Furthermore, Renato Canova has said that Gebrselassie was the first East African to train year round professionally. Before him, East Africans would either jog during the off season or not run at all. Geb was the first to train year round and his consistency and record breaking performances are examples to that.

Kenyans/East Africans have no different abilities than those from any other nation, what they have is an increased frequency of these abilities within the population.

The genetics issue is not proven but we've yet to hear an explanation that would convince us as to why it is happening.

In 2002 Kenya, with a population of 31,000,000 had 224 individuals who recorded sub-2:20 performances in the marathon. There has never been that number of top performers in any nation!

On population size comparisons, Kenya's numbers would be equal to over 2,100 US runners going sub-2:20 in the marathon!

When we start to get those kind of numbers within such a small (Kenyan) population, we might want to stop considering life experiences like running to school, hard training, poverty conditions, and other cultural/motivational issues, and start looking for what might also drive the superiority.

As many say, it remains to be proven!

In the meantime, it makes for interesting discussion.

The population is smaller than that because all these runners are from one tribal group/geographical area.

You guys are STILL debating this???? Are you still debating the "flat or round" earth-shape controversy too??

East African (and North African to an extent) have certain genetic advantages for distance running, END OF STORY.

Some of these advantages have already been proven scientifically, such as-

1) the study trackhead posted where Ethiopian highlanders have a super-human ability to extract O2 from the air, and have the same level of blood oxygenation at 10,000 feet as westerners do at sea level! And..

2) a study that showed that people whose ancestors come from warmer climates have mitonchondrial DNA that is much more efficient at producing energy than people whose ancestors come from cold climates.

Hmmmm.....lets see, superhuman oxygen extraction ability, extra efficient mitochondria (the powerhouses of the cell), hmmmm......could that combo be a small advantage over someone whose body can not naturally pull O2 from the air as well and whose mitochondria is more naturally prone to producing heat (for survivial) rather than producing energy (for work) ????

And these are just two studies. There will be more.

If you people can watch the 5 & 10k final in major races and NOT see a natural talent advantage, than you are also probably still looking for WMD's in Iraq and a connection between Saddam and OBL.

GIVE IT UP, FACE REALITY. Is that too much to ask???? Is the dominance of people of west African ancestry in the 100/200 also "cultural" ??? Are white kids in this country told "not to sprint" anywhere or in any other sports, lest they discover they are fast and decide to become sprinters and ruin the black runners dominance?? Is that it??? Another "keep down whitey" persecution conspiracy???

You guys are funny.

trackhead wrote:

Are Australian Aborignals of West African decent?

Patrick Johnson ran 9.93 in 2003.

And some have gotten close:

10.00 2.0 Marian Woronin POL 13 08 1956 1 Warszawa 09 06 1984

10.00 1.9 Koji Ito JPN 29 01 1970 1sf2 Bangkok 13 12 1998

10.01 A 0.9 Pietro Mennea ITA 28 06 1952 1 Ciudad de México 04 09 1979

Mennea ran 19.72A in '79, so he covered 100m in considerably less than 10.00. Just not the first 100m.

There are some (snooty) northern Europeans who might argue Fermin Cacho's mark counts as African -- "Europe begins at the Pyrennes" has been heard more than once. If you've seen "True Romance" and remember Dennis Hopper's character's final words, you might say the same for Mennea.

To lump Northern Africans into the same group with East Africans shows a complete lack of knowledge of history or ethnography. If you think of three areas - East Africa stretching from Ethiopia to South Africa, the Mediterranean basin, and the rest of the world, then the hegemony of the first two is even more complete.

There is no doubt in anyone's mind that the best runners in the world combine both great talent and great preparation, regardless of where they come from. So let's look at it this way: What nation has the [i[least amount of undeveloped talent? I'd say Kenya, followed by Ethiopia. (Unless you wanted to be a smartass and say that the Vatican doesn't have ANY undeveloped runners.)

Those so called facts that you point out are NOT proven at all.

I am just glad that none of the Ethiopians dope. Imagine how fast they would be if they did? 12-flat? Good thing they've just been a super-race waiting to be unleashed.

Little this/that -

Cheating in it's various forms has been around for a long time, but when do you think was the turning point towards our current epo-era? Surely epo was coming whether or not the Africans were. And what about the Morrocans?

Australian Aborgines..ie the lovely and talented Cathy Freeman are not of "African descent" although one might argue that we are allof African descent..more specifically..the progeny of our ancestors whose remains were found in Oldevai Gorge (sp?)

Cathy Freeman's genetic makeup is closest to Southeast Asians and Polynesians. Based on the proximity of her ancestors and the proximity of Asia, she is more genetically similiar to East Asians than she is to any SubSaharan African or any European.

With regards to genetics and East Africans..we should ponder this.

African-Americans make up 12% of the population and 80-85 percent of the NBA...over represented 6-7 times...quite staggering

Jews make up 2-4 % of the population (depends on how you want to define a Jew)and anywhere from 20-30% of the students and the Ivy league and Elite Universities. over represented 6-7 times...quite staggering.

Asian-Americans make up 4 % of the population and comprise 20-50 percent of the students at Ivy League and Elite Universities. This is all the more amazing when you consider 2/3 of the Asian-American population is "Foreign Born" (English is often not their native tongue!) Take into consideration that many Asians (probably Jews as well) have been passed up for admissions to many top universities in favor of LESS QUALIFIED (not necessarily unqualified)African-Americans, Hispanic-Americans AND non-Jewish WHITE Americans. ie the numbers should be even higher. This is quite staggering as well.

The point is..regardless of whether you think the reason East Africans excel at running is genetic, cultural, environmental or a combination...the criteria you apply to explain that anomaly is equally valid to explain the above anomolies as well....

If you acknoledge that East Africans are better runners due to genetics, you had better be ready to acknowledge teh following to teh same extent.

1. Asians and Jews are smarter than Africans, Hispanics, and Gentile Whites.

That may be true about intelligence, but IQ a hell of a lot less objective than running, and the factors influencing achievement are far more complex than you let on.

I don't claim to undrstand the stats/science behind either side, but I believe the race/IQ disparities have been debunked by people smarter than I. I haven't seen any such debunking done on endurance athletes and genes.

I've posted this right after world cross this year and right after Joss Heremens' quote "we'll have no European in the 10k final at the Olympics" Here's mu 2 cents regarrding folks of East Africa.

The onslaught of the East African runners is only meant to grow larger. I know there have been all kinds of discussions on this - it's the altitude or the attitude, the social and economic factors, the barefoot running, the simple foods they eat, the training they do, etc. Why East instead of West Africa, I don't know. One thing is certain, these people from this part of the world are very talented. But you know what, this talent existed when people Viren, Lopes, Shorter were winning Olympic gold. And there were Kenyans and Ethiopians in those races as well. They may not have been scientifically trained like Europeans and Americans, as a matter of fact they may have been poorly trained, but they were competing with what they had. ( I know African runners who have ridiculous training methods today, never mind then!) The first glimpse of what was to come I'd say came in the form of Henry Rono setting world records after training in the US while Bikila and Keino are examples of triumphs using their own approaches. Kenya and Ethiopia were just beginning to figure it out.

But the point I want to make here is that there is more than just Kenya and Ethiopia, sharing the same genetic pool and I do not mean the shallow end of it. Is it possible that some of these countries may not have the exposure running has in Kenya and Ethiopia? Is it possible that there could be some 12.45 5k runners in the remote areas of Malawi who don't even know competitive running exists? Why did Djibouti have 2.08 Marathon runners (Salah and Robleh) back in the late 80s and nothing now? Would Philimon Hannek from Zimbabwe have been a super stud in the early 90s if he hadn't been living in the US? And speaking of Zimbabwe, did anybody notice that they only had three runners who all finished in respectable 16, 33, and 41 in the long course after the same runners took 6th as a team in the short course the day before? Uganda seems to have just discovered competitive running and it's a couple of people short of mixing it up with their Kalenjin cousins from across the border in Kenya. Another $3 contribution from Puma and they'll discover some more 27.04 Kiprops. Tanzania has showed greatness with Juma Ikanga, Samson Ramadhani and more recently with John Yuda. They finished 7th in the short course behind six other teams from Africa. Burundi had Venuste Niongabo win the 5000m at the Atlanta Olympics, Eritrea is coming on strong with Zerzenay Tadesse leading the charge and even Botswana had a guy finish a couple of places behind much heralded Aussie Craig Motram at world cross this year. I don't see anything from Somalia and Mozambique, but people like Maria Mutola and Abdi Bile proved that there is super talent in those countries as well. Even war-torn Rwanda put together a team that ran good enough to beat Italy, France, United States, Japan, Australia and Great Britain. About a year ago I met one of their runners - Disi Dieudonne. He said he had personal bests of 27.50 and 13.14 but he would run even faster if he had running shoes to practice in. Ridiculousisn't it? About half of these countries mentioned above have national records in distance events faster than our national records. Others would as well, perhaps if basic human necessities would be available. Never mind running shoes! But then again, our own 10k record is also held by a man who is from there from the genetic point of view. God bless you Meb, keep them records coming and make as look good in the Olympics.

And then there is Qatar and Bahrain, but wait ... those countries are in the Persian Gulf. My bad!

Without being offensive to anyone, I believe that if our African-American population had their origin in East Africa, today we would have awesome distance runners. Insted, we inherited the sprinting genetices of West African who quite apparently does not produce any distance runners, though these people live impoverished lives simmilar to their Eastern counterparts (walk around barefoot, eat simple foods etc)

Questions to Westerners:

how come the best (American) football players are from the United States? How come the best skiiers are almost all westerners? How come basketball is dominated by Americans? How come sprints are dominated by Americans or rare Carribeans? How come a sucession of the majority of chess players are Russian? How come long distance running is dominated by East Africans? Who is John Galt?

Queston to young Ethiopians:

Who among you will be the next Kenenisa Bekele? Why are you sitting here reading this? Go! work! outdo them all. (well ... westerners are too busy wasting time here ... but don't think this 'genetic advantage' nonsense will ever cross Kenyan and Moroccan minds. Rutu! Bertitachu rutu! )

I agree with what you say. Intelligence is far more abstract than a 10000 meter time although we can both admit there are an infinte number of factors that go into success in both endeavors. I could not say that for either intelligence or endurance, a weighted value should be given to each factor (ie genetics 25% important for endurance, 20 % for intelligence). However, even the most ardent debunkers of the "race"/IQ myth/idea acknowledge that smart parents tend to have smart children...likewise fast parents tend to have fast children. I made the previouspoint because I find that persons most likely to conclude that a distinct group of African- Americans (or African) have a genetic advantage over whites in sports refuse to ackowledge an almost equalling compelling body of evidence that would point to Asians and Jews (at least in teh US) genetically superior in the intelligence realm.

"Genetic advantage nonsense" or "genetic advantage ignorance" whatever works for you brother, just keep doing what you're doing!

actually wrote:

Those so called facts that you point out are NOT proven at all.

Are you talking about the 2 studies I mentioned??? If so, you are dead wrong. They are proven facts.

Ethiopian highlanders are the only people in the world (measured so far. Western sea-level dwellers have been meausred all over, and other highlanders such as Tibetans and Peruvians have been measured) to have "fully oxygenated blood" ( i.e., a level = to the oxygenation one normally sees in humans at sea level) while living at high altitude. If you can't see that the super-human ability to extract O2 from the air even when it is in short supply (at altitiude) would be a distinct advantage in distance running then there is no helping you.

My second study referred to the recent find printed in scientific journals showing that people whose ancestors from warmers climates had mitonchondrial DNA better able to produce energy than people whose ancestors are from colder climates. Again, this is a fact.

Look up both, and show me how I am wrong about the existence of these studies. Or, if you can't do that (which you will not be able to), then show me how these PROVEN GENETIC DIFFERENCES between a people whose ancestors have lived in warm highland evironments for aeons vs people whose ancestors are from colder sea-level environemnts might not make a difference in the 2 groups' natural distance running ability.

But the overall point is: one can NOT say that there are no verifiable genetic qualities (such as the O2 extraction ability) that seperate East African from other groups of people in the world. There ARE genetic differences between peoples from different regions of the globe. That is a FACT. Why would it then be a leap to think that some of these differences might not influence distance or sprint running ability???? It wouldn't be a leap. It would be a natural progression of thought. But I guess some are so strongly in denial that they will fight such natural progressions and grasp at drug conspiracy theories instead. Maybe such drug accusations makes you feel less inferior and makes you happier. Well, it if really makes you happier, then I guess go with that ignorance, because....

" IF ignorance is bliss, tis folly to be wise."

(most people leave out that "if" from the quote. I prefer to believe that facing reality is more blissful than living in ignorance)

A little of this, a little of wrote:

[quote]four eyes wrote:

Genetics are involved, but a huge element is politically protected drug use. Most of the top Africans are doped to the eyeballs, and do not have to undergo out of season surprise tests. Then if caught, it's covered up or all sorts of strange things happen a la affair Lagat.

Do the E. Africans have a good talent pool? Surely. But the situation you see now is artificial. It's as realistic as the birthdates of E. African "juniors".

You are stupid. If you have nothing to write, please just don't do it!