Italian Marathoners: almost 10 years without breaking 2:10. What happened?

FFF wrote:

If Galen Rupp had not moved to the marathon, how long would this gap be now?

Depends on the rules again. If there are no restrictions, it's less than 5 because Meb ran a PR in 2014, and he may have run sub 210 again after that.

The last "american born" that wasn't Rupp is probably Ritz in Chicago 2012 (his sub 208)

You make an excellent point that is also very sobering and a tad depressing.

Italians are facing the truth wrote:

The entire world attempted to develop their best 10.3 to 10.5 100m men until Bob Hayes sprinted 10.06 at 1964 Olympics. For twenty more years, the world pretended to care about 100m. Last weekend the world saw what real Marathon running looks like in Berlin. The Marathon champ, W.C., Olympics and Big Six will come from Tanzania, Ethiopia or Kenya. The world, including Italy now competes at distances 200m to 1500m.

Uganda too. Possibly Eritrea but there guys seem to tap out after the half-marathon.

Ben L Wrong wrote:

douglas burke wrote:

They do have a 21 year old who ran 27:44 (Crippa) in the 10000 so maybe there is help on the way

Yes, and Chiappinelli the Steeplechaser (8:27), but they're imported from Ethiopia (Italian colony in the first half of the 20th century.

I was talking about marathoners, but in addition to that, they don't have depth in middle distance track events. In the 80s/90s they had Cova, Genni Di Napoli, Antibo, Mei, Lambruschini, Panetta, Longo, Ortis, Fava, Fiasconaro, etc...

Crippa came to Italy as an orphan child..... so he is not Italian for convenience....

Ben L Wrong wrote:

So why athletes don't move to East Africa then?

Robertsons did that, and see the results...

Oh yeah, just move to Africa. What a great place to live! How did they not think of this!?

running commenter wrote:

Ben L Wrong wrote:

So why athletes don't move to East Africa then?

Robertsons did that, and see the results...

Oh yeah, just move to Africa. What a great place to live! How did they not think of this!?

What makes a place to live "great"?

Eldoret, Addis Ababa, or Iten aren't worst places to live than Compton, East St Louis, or certain hoods of Baltimore, Detroit, New Jersey, etc.

There could be any number of reasons Renato Canova does not coach in Italy. It could be that he finds East Africans and other countries such as China more receptive to his methods. It could be that he gets paid more than Italy would pay him. He could also enjoy living there since it's a more relaxed lifestyle. Why does someone work in Iowa for less money than Seattle? Why do people stay in Canada as nurses when they could be paid twice as much in the States? As you grow up, you start to realize that there are many factors that influence why a person does what they do and until Renato himself says why, I don't want to speculate (nor do I really care, to be honest).

The so-called reason that Italians can jail dopers is a red-herring.

Just ask the following Italian cycling dopers:

Ivan Basso, Danillio DiLuca, Riccardo Ricco, Davide Rebellin, Alessandro Petacchi, etc. All sanctioned (some multiple times), none went to jail.

Detto questo, adoro l'italia! Spero di vivere lì un giorno.

Old-ex-distance-running-fan wrote:

Lance Armstrong didn't even visit Italy from 2000-2008 because he knew that they would arrest him. Everyone in endurance sports starting leaving Italy after 2000. You just DID not mess with the Italian on this issue.

One more thing: he couldn't bring his altitude tent either. These are banned. So there really isn't a level playing field at all. While among Americans it is very normal to use them in our country this practice is considered doping and you would end up banned!

Daniel Meucci looks as though he is capable though focus seems to be on championships

2014 Euro Marathon Champ

2016 Euro Half Marathon Bronze Medalist

2017 8th World Marathon Championships

Outside of these Lake Biwa has been his main foray into marathon racing which is not traditionally a faster course (Kipsang with course record of 2.06.13 back in 2011 same year he ran 2.03.42)

All of these Italian riders were caught doping outside of the country. Basso got caught during the Operation Puerto Affair, and in fact, the Italian power-that-be, fought very hard to get what data they could from the Spanish authorities who eventually destroyed all the evidence and frustrated the sporting world by holding all the information up in court cases and the Spanish legal system. Not good, but the Spanish powers were hiding all the Spanish soccer doping. The Italians got Basso's info out and punished him:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/real-madrid/9948973/Real-Madrid-owe-me-money-says-blood-doping-doctor-Eufemiano-Fuentes.html

Rebellini got caught in China during the 2008 Olympics.

Richardo Ricco got caught in the Tour de France. The French caught him.

Di Luca got caught twice in the Giro. He is the only one who got caught in Italy. To get out from under jail time (the first time) he ratted out a number of people and helped the authorities figure out more about the systemic doping culture.

The second time he got caught, Di Luca was BANNED for LIFE by CONI!

Jail time! Big fines! And Lifetime bans. The Italians are very serious.

We don't do that here. Lance Armstrong is one of the only US athletes banned for life.

So, I disagree that Italy is a place for dopers.

In the 80s, the Italians OWNED world class cycling and marathon running. They were a major force in track and field. They won the NYC Marathon 3 times. They dominated the World Cycling Road Championships in Colorado Springs in 1986 (for example). They dominated the track with Cova and others. They were a big force in cross country skiing. All dopers.

Today, they don't have a single athlete on the world stage in any endurance sport. There cyclists are terrible.

US has gone 8 3/4 months in 2018 with one sub-2:15 Marathoner, Galen Rupp. I would have thought a couple dozen guys on lets run who brag about their sub-14/sub-30 5K/10K performances would have broken 2:10 this year? US runners have no room to point fingers at Italy for their lack of Marathon success.

I see your points. However, by western standards, Italy is a pretty corrupt country with organized crime all over the place in industries like construction hence many bridges are collapsing because of Mafia-supplied sub-standard cement to the construction industry, endless match fixing in their soccer leagues, impossibility of getting a regular job without being a friend of a friend etc etc . So why would such a corrupt country be focused on cleaning out doping in endurance sports? It does not seem to be very consistent to say the least.

Ben L Wrong wrote:

Last sub 2:10 was in April 2009 (2:09:53) by Ruggero Pertile.

Before that, they had Baldini, Di Cecco, Caimmi, Pertile... all of them under 2:10

Di Cecco got popped for EPO.

Agree with a later poster that Meucci should be capable of it. Eyob might have a chance.

Positive Contribution wrote:

Italians are facing the truth wrote:

Last weekend the world saw what real Marathon running looks like in Berlin. The Marathon champ, W.C., Olympics and Big Six will come from Tanzania, Ethiopia or Kenya. The world, including Italy now competes at distances 200m to 1500m.

Uganda too. Possibly Eritrea but there guys seem to tap out after the half-marathon.

You both missed the other big one.

Billy Mays here wait there's more wrote:

Ben L Wrong wrote:

So why athletes don't move to East Africa then?

Robertsons did that, and see the results...

Most runner's don't have the balls to do that.

Most runner’s what don’t have balls?

Andrea lalli looked the goods in 2012-13, leading up to his proposed marathon debut in Venice late 2013. What happened there?

El Keniano wrote:

Cyclist nation wrote:

They're more into cycling and football ⚽. If they spent there energy, time and money into running instead of there main sports I guarantee that they would have more sub 2:10 runners.

This is true. Running isn’t as big in Italy as it is in, say, Spain. This can be seen in the number of events such as road races and the amount of public support. Comparing Monday morning front pages, most of the biggest Spanish papers featured Kipchoge somehow because the public understand the magnitude of that achievement despite currently not having any current big time runners of their own. Running remains one of the biggest participatory sport in Spain. Italian running, on the other hand, is dead.

Monday morning papers, Italy.

http://en.kiosko.net/it/2018-09-17/

Monday morning papers, Spain.

http://en.kiosko.net/es/2018-09-17/

You don´t see a lot of top Spanish runners these days, either. I think the obvious answer is EPO tests. Both countries has a very bad doping reputation in endurance sports.

A bit of an important sidenote: the Italians take mountain running very seriously.

More opportunities in mountain/sky/ultras.

As for doping, hopefully things have improved. I don't think Desco ever lost her title though after she tested positive for EPO. In general there is testing at competitions, maybe that explains why Spain doesn't