Is Sub-3 Possible with high-mileage alone? Why or Why Not? How?

Georgerunner wrote:

Easily. I ran sub 2:45 at 46 off 50-65 a week, no sessions. Just occasional fell races.

did you run in college?

I think it comes down to whether or not one had prior fitness of, say, < 17min 5K. If you were previously in decent shape, got out of shape, and then ran all long slow miles, then yeah, definitely doable. If you've never run before, not a chance.

HighMileageNoWorkouts wrote:

Just curious on this. Is it possible to run sub-3 without any workouts. Example: Say for 3 months someone runs a large base of 70-100 mpw at a slow pace (8:00/mile to 9:30/mile).

I feel that the answer is yes, but I don't know how this is possible. Wouldn't this person just get used to running slow and become fatigued and uncomfortable running MP (anything under 7:00/mile pace) during the Sub-3 attempt?

Yes. But I would run 120 miles per week.

The whole point is that you need to run marathon pace or better ahead of a marathon to run well.

Sure, if you run 6 miles at close to MP every week with good mileage, you're going to run a good marathon.

Seriously these what if threads are always awesome and fun to read , so much good input and everybody plays along with the speculation. It doesn't seem though that I ever seem to see follow up posts from people who just tried what they asked and what the result was. That would be incredibly informative. Be your own experiment of 1 and let us all learn from it!!

The answer with this question here has to be that it depends on the individual. Has to be it would depend on where the person started from. 70-100 mpw for only 90 days, straight out of the gate, if the person was not fit they might not get to the mpw target anyway.

Still have to believe also it is mandatory to train at least some at the goal pace. Most of the big gains come from training at least some at faster than goal pace too

HighMileageNoWorkouts wrote:

Just curious on this. Is it possible to run sub-3 without any workouts. Example: Say for 3 months someone runs a large base of 70-100 mpw at a slow pace (8:00/mile to 9:30/mile).

I feel that the answer is yes, but I don't know how this is possible. Wouldn't this person just get used to running slow and become fatigued and uncomfortable running MP (anything under 7:00/mile pace) during the Sub-3 attempt?

Oh please, is this just another "old timer wants to talk about the seventies, long slow distance, Van Aaken, Lydiard, etc" thread?

Of course it's possible. I mean, there was a time where any man, and i mean ANY man younger than 40 would be expected to run a sub-3 hour marathon on no training.

Jeez, Steve Way ran a 3:07 on three weeks training and he was 220 pounds and smoked a pack a day.

The stuff that counts as achievement in the running world today is a joke.

Georgerunner wrote:

Easily. I ran sub 2:45 at 46 off 50-65 a week, no sessions. Just occasional fell races.

Georgerunner, how fast were you running your 50-65 a week, over what terrain and how often were your fell races? I might not be as talented as you, but if I were to run 50-65 a week at 7-8 minute mile pace over hills, with one run being 22 miles long and ran a hard fell race every 2 weeks I would probably run under 3 hours for the marathon.

To echo what others have said about prior running experience mattering, I was an average middle distance runner in college 10 years ago and have since casually run ~5 mi/week. I recently ran 3:02 for my first marathon with a few months at 5-20 mi/week with no structured workouts. Every body responds differently to training and the challenge of a marathon; do what feels good to you.

zzzz wrote:

The miles for those weeks were:

marathon week, including the marathon:78

89

91

100

93

124

122

92

108

87

49

112

Good God Almighty how bored were you running for almost 1/7 of your waking hours most of those weeks? Jeeeeezus.

Are you serious? wrote:

Jeez, Steve Way ran a 3:07 on three weeks training and he was 220 pounds and smoked a pack a day.

The stuff that counts as achievement in the running world today is a joke.

And he eventually ran 2:15 when he was lighter than 220 pounds and not smoking a pack a day. What percentage of the population have the ability to run a 2:15 marathon? Less than the percentage of the population who can run a 3 hour marathon on mileage alone.

Yes, if you are also skinny. But if you’re a fat guy you won’t go under 3. So a 5’9 200 lb dude can run 70 miles at that sort of pace, but he won’t be able to increase his pace enough race day to go under 3.

HighMileageNoWorkouts wrote:

Just curious on this. Is it possible to run sub-3 without any workouts. Example: Say for 3 months someone runs a large base of 70-100 mpw at a slow pace (8:00/mile to 9:30/mile).

I feel that the answer is yes, but I don't know how this is possible. Wouldn't this person just get used to running slow and become fatigued and uncomfortable running MP (anything under 7:00/mile pace) during the Sub-3 attempt?

If you have 2:40 or better talent then it's easy. If you have 3 hour talent then it will be a lot less likely.

Good Sweet Lord wrote:

zzzz wrote:

The miles for those weeks were:

marathon week, including the marathon:78

89

91

100

93

124

122

92

108

87

49

112

Good God Almighty how bored were you running for almost 1/7 of your waking hours most of those weeks? Jeeeeezus.

Not at all. Running in the mountains and on nice trails is fun and what I want to do. It's better than watching TV for me, which is why I live where I live. I get to do what people want to do when they go on vacation in beautiful places to go running/hiking.

Another idiot wrote:

If you have 2:40 or better talent then it's easy. If you have 3 hour talent then it will be a lot less likely.

Wth does that mean? Your saying there is a gene specifically associated for each minute in the marathon?

The OP needs to follow this up and do it for real.

Long run 20-22 miles at 8:00. Remainder at between 6:00 and 7:30 . Used weekly club run as an unofficial personal fartlek session.

I'm not naturally talented (never made the county team), but I do regard myself as a 'runner', rather than a keep-fit type.

Another giver of +1 wrote:

Are you serious? wrote:

Jeez, Steve Way ran a 3:07 on three weeks training and he was 220 pounds and smoked a pack a day.

The stuff that counts as achievement in the running world today is a joke.

And he eventually ran 2:15 when he was lighter than 220 pounds and not smoking a pack a day. What percentage of the population have the ability to run a 2:15 marathon? Less than the percentage of the population who can run a 3 hour marathon on mileage alone.

Add that Steve was 40 when he ran that 2:15 (English Masters record) and he just finished third at Comrades (at age 43) in June.

If one has unlimited time and energy and just enjoys being out there and never home, fine. It may or may not work depending on lots of factors.

Heck, I run under 3 hours with 35-45 mpw and no workouts. LOL Only progressions runs and progressive long runs.

HighMileageNoWorkouts wrote:

Just curious on this. Is it possible to run sub-3 without any workouts. Example: Say for 3 months someone runs a large base of 70-100 mpw at a slow pace (8:00/mile to 9:30/mile).

I feel that the answer is yes, but I don't know how this is possible. Wouldn't this person just get used to running slow and become fatigued and uncomfortable running MP (anything under 7:00/mile pace) during the Sub-3 attempt?

I semi raced a 30k at the end of March on residual lifetime fitness, but was a far cry from peak race shape due to a lingering foot and ankle flare up. I ran a 2:28, few seconds shy of 8 minute pace. I was pretty pumped considering my severe limited training for 6 weeks. 5 weeks later I ran a hilly HM in 1:34, and I got one 30+ mpw and a few tempos in between the 30k and HM. I do believe, going back to the original topic of the thread, there are a few variables that play into the optimal mpw vs workouts for the athlete.

What's the runner's athletic history? What's their past with injuries and how efficient are they? Are they strictly aerobic monsters or do they have a big base of strength and cross training too? I've only topped the 40+ mpw three times in my life, mind you, I've been actively training in some way shape or form going back to my early teens, so this isn't entirely new to me. All of our bodies respond differently though. The tricky thing about speed work is, while it's important, if done too frequent, or early in season, it's a recipe for disaster. I like throwing strides and shorter intervals into easy or long runs. Seems to keep the leg pop and turnover efficiency without over taxing myself. You're logging aerobic volume, and you're revving the system up with shorter bursts. I think racing a local 5k is a fun way to get some speed work in too.