Help me understand why Muir's coach thinks Dibaba deserves contempt for associating with Aden but Hassan doesn't for Salazar

blatter wrote:

1) There's questions about the test. Was it reliable? Slaney's total amount of testosterone was not about normal, but here ratio was. Are there other things which could cause it? Was the IAAF looking for a victim?

2) There are questions about who was here coach. Slaney was at Nike. There were lots of coaches there. Lots helped her out, including Salazar. But Slaney claims Dellinger was her primary coach. Salazar just encouraged her. Ran with her from time to time. Salazar seemed to like to indenify himself as coaching her, but whether he was her Coach, or just "coaching" her is unclearr.

It's not clear cut. As is the case for Rupp/Mo. Was Salazar cheating or just seeing how far he could push things within the current rules.

If there were questions about the test, and if there were grounds to Slaney's claim that her ratio was off due to being an elite athlete on birth control, she could've just been retested and shown that the 11:1 T:E ratio was in fact normal for her. She elected not to do this.

Dellinger may have been the coach, and Salazar may have been the encourager, but that encouragement also included sending packages from Portland to Eugene with an emissary, which is problematic.

rojo wrote:

Mr obvious wrote:

The difference is pretty obvious.

Its like comparing the cheating Harvey Weinstein did on his wife, to a guy who picks up the latest copy of the SI swimsuit issue behind his wife’s back and then may or may not look at it swimsuit section.

One will get you divorced, the other not likely, but both are potentially cheating to a certain degree.

It's not like that at all. Terrible analogy.

You are assuming that Aden is guilty when nothing has been charged. Actually it seems to me that you are assuming both are guilty but that Salazar would only be guilty of L-Carnitine and not androgel.

Rojo - You are crazy and have this obsession with ODP. Same lame story different day. When are you going to show us some proof? You really need to learn to move on with your life.

Lara Muir and Andy Young are both out of line -- presumably some combination of bad sportsmanship and unwitting victims of believing tabloid rumors.

Another thing Aden and Salazar have in common: They have both been under intense scrutiny, Aden by the IAAF (with the help of AEPSAD, Interpol, Spanish police, etc., since 2013) and Salazar by USADA (with cooperative testimony from at least 19 former athletes and staff since 2012).

To date, the latest official statements I've seen:

- After a 1 year criminal investigation, Aden is on trial for trafficking non-doping vitamins, with the IAAF reserving the right to bring anti-doping charges if applicable

- The IAAF issued a statement last year that they were still investigating if anyone at NOP committed an ADRV

rekrunner wrote:

Lara Muir and Andy Young are both out of line -- presumably some combination of bad sportsmanship and unwitting victims of believing tabloid rumors.

Another thing Aden and Salazar have in common: They have both been under intense scrutiny, Aden by the IAAF (with the help of AEPSAD, Interpol, Spanish police, etc., since 2013) and Salazar by USADA (with cooperative testimony from at least 19 former athletes and staff since 2012).

To date, the latest official statements I've seen:

- After a 1 year criminal investigation, Aden is on trial for trafficking non-doping vitamins, with the IAAF reserving the right to bring anti-doping charges if applicable

- The IAAF issued a statement last year that they were still investigating if anyone at NOP committed an ADRV

Oh come on, to quote McEnroe, "You cannot be serious?" Aden had a ton of drugs on him and he was waiting till after OOC testing to pump it into his athletes. You can do better than this.

(How was your break? Good to see you back ?).

Hey rekrunner...you're back. I tried to respond to your post on the your "A closer look at EPO-era performances" thread but it's lock down to register users only.

I realize Rojo explained why on the thread. It's too bad all good things must come to end on LRC.

I thought it was an insightful debate until things got out of hand there at the end.

rekrunner wrote:

Salazar by USADA (with cooperative testimony from at least 19 former athletes and staff since 2012).

No, not "cooperative". USADA explicitly complained about the lack of cooperation, not just from Salazar, Rupp, Tara etc., but also from the likes of Magness.

rekrunner wrote:

To date, the latest official statements I've seen:

Yes. A shame! This is reminiscent of the Armstrong situation from 10 - 15 years ago: the writing is on the wall, some tough talking, yet no action. Same old, same old.

Better than the undisputed facts? McEnroe was out of line too. I'm aware everyone here wants so hard to believe "Aden had a ton of drugs on him", including British newspapers, and athletes like Laura Muir and coaches like Andy Young. But this ignores clear reports that the Spanish police, while they did find WADA banned drugs in other hotel rooms, they did not find *Aden* with "a ton of drugs", only with injectable vitamins -- like Aden said -- like Torrence said -- like Driouch said. If the standard is "innocent until proven guilty", then we need more proof without all the bad faith. We are 5 years (+/-) into investigations of both Aden and Salazar without clear proof that Aden, or Salazar, caused, or help cause, any athlete to commit any ADRV. I'm sorry my re-statement of the plain facts is unpopular, as if it were blasphemy, but that's where we are today. I reserve the right to change my mind when we "know" more facts.

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

Oh come on, to quote McEnroe, "You cannot be serious?" Aden had a ton of drugs on him and he was waiting till after OOC testing to pump it into his athletes. You can do better than this.

(How was your break? Good to see you back ?).

Cooperative, non-hostile witnesses who approached USADA of their own volition. In the end, even Magness cooperated. While it is not a barrier for the low standards of the court of public opinion, or British documentaries, USADA cannot act on the basis of pure faith and belief. I'm not sure if you are trying to mislead others, or yourself. (Note also that with respect to Armstrong, USADA also explicitly complained about the lack of cooperation from the federal government investigation, forcing USADA to redo its own depositions.)

casual obsever wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Salazar by USADA (with cooperative testimony from at least 19 former athletes and staff since 2012).

No, not "cooperative". USADA explicitly complained about the lack of cooperation, not just from Salazar, Rupp, Tara etc., but also from the likes of Magness.

rekrunner wrote:

To date, the latest official statements I've seen:

Yes. A shame! This is reminiscent of the Armstrong situation from 10 - 15 years ago: the writing is on the wall, some tough talking, yet no action. Same old, same old.

I guess you mean "wejo". Yes it really got out of hand.

Rocket Fuel Rick wrote:

Hey rekrunner...you're back. I tried to respond to your post on the your "A closer look at EPO-era performances" thread but it's lock down to register users only.

I realize Rojo explained why on the thread. It's too bad all good things must come to end on LRC.

I thought it was an insightful debate until things got out of hand there at the end.

rekrunner wrote:

Lara Muir and Andy Young are both out of line -- presumably some combination of bad sportsmanship and unwitting victims of believing tabloid rumors.

Another thing Aden and Salazar have in common: They have both been under intense scrutiny, Aden by the IAAF (with the help of AEPSAD, Interpol, Spanish police, etc., since 2013) and Salazar by USADA (with cooperative testimony from at least 19 former athletes and staff since 2012).

To date, the latest official statements I've seen:

- After a 1 year criminal investigation, Aden is on trial for trafficking non-doping vitamins, with the IAAF reserving the right to bring anti-doping charges if applicable

- The IAAF issued a statement last year that they were still investigating if anyone at NOP committed an ADRV

This is thee "rekrunner"...back in action? So, what's your next move? A "second" closer look at the EPO-era performances? Lol. Or have you conceded that EPO performance benefits are NOT a myth? One Jon Orange is enough. Lol.

Yes. Maybe one day. No. Um, OK.

Here We Go Again wrote:

This is thee "rekrunner"...back in action? So, what's your next move? A "second" closer look at the EPO-era performances? Lol. Or have you conceded that EPO performance benefits are NOT a myth? One Jon Orange is enough. Lol.

Yes, it is getting rather tiresome. Rekrunner, can't seem to grasp the obvious. So of all the places on the surface of this planet, in one motel complex in Sabadell, Spain, you have sh*the loads of PEDs in one room and some of the world's best runners in the rooms next door. The room with all the PEDs belonged to the therapist. Yet some how none of these are related.

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

Yes, it is getting rather tiresome. Rekrunner, can't seem to grasp the obvious. So of all the places on the surface of this planet, in one motel complex in Sabadell, Spain, you have sh*the loads of PEDs in one room and some of the world's best runners in the rooms next door. The room with all the PEDs belonged to the therapist. Yet some how none of these are related.

Well...that's because EPO was found among the cache of PEDs and our resident expert rekrunner doesn't think EPO provides any significant performance enhancing benefits to elite runners. Funny thing is if only steroids were found at the hotel, and only female mid-d elites were at the camp, he'd be singing a different tune. He's gone on record as saying he believes there's definite performance enhancing capabilities of steroids & female mid-d runners, but loses sight of a decades long EPO performance enhancing connection with runners.

The main problem with "the obvious" is that I can only get there with your imagination. Maybe that's OK for blind lemmings, but like you said, I "can do better than this." After a three year sting operation, "which began in 2013, working in close cooperation with Interpol, the Spanish authorities including the Spanish National Anti-Doping Agency (AEPSAD), Spanish police and other organisations", and a one year criminal investigation by Spanish authorities, with confiscated drugs, laptops, and ability to compel witnesses testimony, should we still be "imagining" two years later, what the working relation was between Aden and the Saudi physio?

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

Yes, it is getting rather tiresome. Rekrunner, can't seem to grasp the obvious. So of all the places on the surface of this planet, in one motel complex in Sabadell, Spain, you have sh*the loads of PEDs in one room and some of the world's best runners in the rooms next door. The room with all the PEDs belonged to the therapist. Yet some how none of these are related.

"Lost sight"? I took a very close look at all top performances spanning decades, contrasting some exceptional regional dominance with relative world-wide stagnation. It is fair to say, if the pattern of facts were different, so would be my interpretation. Not so sure why that is a funny thing. Most people find it boring or tiring.

Same as it ever was... wrote:

Well...that's because EPO was found among the cache of PEDs and our resident expert rekrunner doesn't think EPO provides any significant performance enhancing benefits to elite runners. Funny thing is if only steroids were found at the hotel, and only female mid-d elites were at the camp, he'd be singing a different tune. He's gone on record as saying he believes there's definite performance enhancing capabilities of steroids & female mid-d runners, but loses sight of a decades long EPO performance enhancing connection with runners.

Some current information on doping hot off the press. Any optimism that things are getting better will surely be deflated after reading this report:

https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2018/2/14/17003898/olympics-russia-doping-science

Some excerpts:

➡️"Performance enhancement, in its various legal, illegal, and gray area forms, is rampant in sports. Russia’s egregious state-sponsored doping of athletes at the 2014 Sochi Winter Olympics and 2016 Rio Olympics, for instance, involved tampering with urine and blood specimens. But there are subtler and more common ways to gain an advantage. “Doping appears remarkably widespread among elite athletes, and remains largely unchecked despite current biological testing,” the authors of a 2017 World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA)study write."

➡️"Biology makes things difficult as well. One common test for testosterone steroids measures the body’s T/E ratio, which normally finds testosterone (T) and epitestosterone (E) in equal measure in undoped athletes. But people have natural variations in their hormones, so WADA allows T/E ratios as high as 4-1, leading some athletes to top off with just enough testosterone to stay under that limit."

➡️"Another way around screening is microdosing, taking drugs like erythropoietin (EPO), a hormone that increases red blood cell production, in quantities small enough to avoid detection but large enough to have an effect. EPO micro-doses disappear quickly so doses are taken almost every day in the hope of escaping testers,” Xavier Bigard of France’s national anti-doping agency told AFP. (However, a study last year found that EPO had no measurable effect in cycling races.)"

Same as it ever was...just on a smaller scale ?