Road Racing & Training Thread: Week Ending 04 Feb 2018

Smoove- i don’t think you need a stability shoe man.

Agree that Boston 6s are great. I think I have at least 700-800 miles on one of my pairs now. Still no issues and they feel fine. I do all of my faster long runs, tempos and almost all speed work in these. I’ve used the New Balance 1500 and I’m not in love with it. In my opinion the cushioning sucks compared to Boost. They wear out quickly and I remember the forefoot cushioning feeling a little minimal.

The now defunct New Balance 5000v2 however is the greatest road racing flat known to man. I have a pair that I have to just save now for special occasions. just under 4 oz and still like 7-8mm drop.

I just got a pair of Nike streak LT3s for $50 on Running Warehouse and tested them yesterday. They feel pretty good too (just over 5oz) and the 4mm drop didn’t seem to be an issue. I think they will be my workhorse shoe for faster workouts and low key 5-8k races. Somewhere around the 8 or 10k distance and it’s time to switch over to the Vaporfly. Probably 10k.

Pappy, I’m in the minority in that I actually really like the new Adidas Supernova. They just feel super cushy and plush. But they are definitely not built for running fast at all. Energy Boost is ok too. Don’t bother with any of the Ultra Boost or Pure Boost lameness.

These look very fast too. 3.5 oz and using that same Pebax foam (used in Vaporfly etc).

I just can’t bring myself to spend 250 on a 5k racing flat. (Maybe something related to being in the twilight of my ongoing attempts to run

faster...)

When I ran when I was 19-20 I would get injured and was always in a stability shoe. When I started back 2 years ago I stuck with a neutral shoe and have been relatively healthy even with going 0-100 in a year or so. I think when you stop natural foot roll you are asking for ankle-knee-hip probs.

Smoove does have a mean pronation.

Slo - I like the feel of these Skechers GoMeb Speeds. 4mm drop and 6.5 ounces. They feel lighter though. Breaking them out tomorrow so maybe I will get a little new shoe race mojo.

I'm hijacking the thread for a bit, because I'm selfish, and because I think it is a worthwhile topic.

Compared to the rest of the folks on this thread, I'm somewhere in the middle by most metrics (age, mileage, PRs), but I'm inexperienced when it comes to marathon training. So here are my questions:

1. How do you determine a goal time? My half marathons would indicated 235-237 is an appropriate goal. My 3k/5k/8k point towards 230-233. As I have been in the 50-60 range for mileage for over 10 years, I'd say I have been undertrained for my half marathons, but have realized my potential at shorter distances given that mileage.

1B. Should your goal time be what your potential is, or what you think a more reasonable pace is? Part of me wants to train at 545/mile as GMP, but then execute a race plan where I start slower and make sure I have a good first marathon. The daniels calculator points towards some eyepopping times, especially if I manage to trim down a bit.

2. How important is the mid-week long run? As I have ramped up mileage, I am not having problems running 16-22 on the weekend. It is the 13-15 mile midweek run that seems impossible. It is hard for two reasons. 1. it makes it hard to do workouts before or after and, 2. It is time consuming. My general plan is to follow Pfitzinger with one revision, and that is to never run fewer than 9 miles, but only run 10-12 for the midweek long run. I seem to do better on consistent daily mileage.

Stay warm and thanks.

I...am not worthy of the Run Fast Pro. I want the Reebok Floatride Run Fast that's supposed to come out this summer instead. Pebax, 6-7oz, $150, and no big stiff plate in there telling my foot what to do. I haven't tried the Vaporfly, but I don't like shoes that tell my foot what to do. I could be wrong, maybe I'll try it someday.

Smoove, the Tempo is $72 at running warehouse before FB15D in one discontinued color right now. Haven't tried it, just read how it's marketed and reviewed.

Unfortunately, despite my diminutive size, the probation is real (and so we're the IT band issues that came along with it back in college when I trained in neutral shoes not knowing any better):

https://imgur.com/a/5Qt4U

Bdubs- when is the race? sometime in April or May? If so, I would figure out what you can do for a half right now (5:30 Pace? 5:35?). Then Add about 20 seconds/mile. Just off the top of my head I think you can go 2:35 or under. In my opinion, Daniels calculator is pretty aggressive with the marathon predictions. Check out John Kellogg’s chart

http://www.letsrun.com/2007/jkconversion.pdf

Especially in your situation, I would not eliminate the midweek long run. If anything I would reduce the amount of running that is faster than half marathon pace because you already have all the speed that you’ll need.

If the race is in the fall then you have a lot of time and should disregard my musings.

Thanks, I just ordered a pair. I figure since I do occasionally wear my Bostons for tempo efforts, this might be an inexpensive alternative and may be better since it is a stability shoe and my marathon tempo sessions are long enough to warrant the added stability.

JK's chart seems to skew towards speed vs strength eh? . For me I can do the 17:15 5k, but I highly doubt I could go 4:55 in a mile. Dont even think I could run 5 flat.

I kind of wonder how accurate any calculator can be with respect to the marathon since it is such a finicky race. Any little thing that goes wrong gets amplified because of how long it goes wrong for. I do think that the Daniels calculator has been accurate enough in that I believe that it accurately predicted how well I could have run had everything gone right on race day (I have never felt excessively aerobically challenged in any of my three marathons), but when has everything ever gone right on a marathon race day?

Just one slower man's opinion, but...

1. For a first marathon, I would base goal off of the more conservative time, even (or maybe especially) for training. This is partially because the half marathon is closer to the demands of the marathon, so it should provide a better estimate, especially if you believe in following trendlines. The shorter to longer distance trend appears to be a minor slowdown when comparing VDOTs, what evidence do you have to reverse the trend? Additionally, if you're planning on going to a higher mileage like many do for a marathon, then part of the challenge is just to get to the starting line healthy under that higher workload. You say you've been running 50-60mpw...if you switch to 9mi or more 5 days a week + 12 + LR you're at....80? Do you have a lot of experience running 80mpw? At training paces "equivalent" to your 5k/8k PRs? My thought is you can be just as likely to have a bad first marathon experience if you show up injured as you would if you go out too fast. It's a long enough training cycle that there's always time to readjust goals as you move through if you're feeling great (something I've done with medium success).

2. Don't have a lot of experience with Pfitz to say how it fits in the rest of his plan, so I will only touch on this one... but part of the intention of a lot of marathon plans is to carry over some built up fatigue from one workout to the next (within reason). (Maybe I have this view just be because I've read the Hanson's book.) Going back to point 1.) Maybe the workouts are hard to hit before or after if you're trying to hit the "aggressive" race goal paces and you're not fresh...but what about the more conservative paces after the midweek medium-long run? Again referencing my Hanson's experience...10 miles at MP should feel pretty relaxed, but it feels much less relaxed in the middle of training because of what you do on the days around it. On the other hand, I also believe consistent cumulative mileage is often more important for a marathon than any individual run, so maybe stick with whatever you think will get you to that consistent cumulative mileage. So like I said in the onset, I'm not super helpful for 2.

That’s why I think JK chart could be more applicable for BDubs. For me personally Daniels chart is accurate for any distances half and under. Maybe I just underperform in the marathon. It converts my half time to like a 2:29, and even with a marathon specific block, I don’t I could pull that off. Hopefully in the fall though.

Completely agreement with Slo here on the med long runs. I think taking into account your speed and mileage (low from a marathon standpoint) you'll realize far greater gains by dialing back the really fast stuff and getting in that extra volume mid week. Not to mention, when you start running longer reps near MP in workouts (3x3, 4x3, etc) you're kind of naturally forced into a medium long run anyway once you tack on warm up and cool down.

JK's chart doesn't even come close to lining up with me, Daniels fits better. But I'm much more endurance oriented with no speed. For instance, my 5k PR last year leading into Boston was a 17:46 iirc and I ran a heat slowed 2:50 flat which I firmly believe on a decent weather day would have been closer to a 2:46 or so.

runrincerepeat wrote:

JK's chart seems to skew towards speed vs strength eh? . For me I can do the 17:15 5k, but I highly doubt I could go 4:55 in a mile. Dont even think I could run 5 flat.

I ran almost exactly the 18:44/1:27:55/3:09:14 line in the span of 3-4 months last year, but I came up with an excuse why each one was slower than my potential at the time....haha. (3 weeks after marathon with no race specific training and a couple weeks off and went out too fast/middle of marathon training with no taper and underestimated fitness so went out too slow/warm and humid day in June).

Soooo...maybe I should save this table for future reference.

Good stuff.

Some points:

1. For half marathon buildups, I've put in 10-15 week blocks at 60-70 miles. For 2017 I averaged 62 miles per week. In general I run an hour a day, workout or otherwise. My long runs have been severly lacking in quantity and quality. Given that my daily mileage is higher than my weekly mileage (if that makes sense), I'm thinking that I'll try to average 75 miles per week, maxing at about 80-82 miles on singles.

2. I have two races targeted, the Lincoln Marathon and the Fargo marathon. If the weather is bad at Lincoln (whihc it often is), I'll run the half and then run a full at Fargo two weeks later.

3. I didn't ask my goal pace question clearly enough. I'm NOT going out at 545-550 pace no matter how well the training goes. BUT, i might train like that's my goal pace, does that make sense? I would imagine a perfect race scenario would be splitting 119/114-115, leaving some meat on the bone for marathon number 2. It would also give me the ability to run 120/125 as opposed to 115/150 if things don't go as planned.

Bdubs, I'm in the same boat as a first-timer. Interested to see what others say as well. I like to use the calculators as a starting point, but the workout feedback should illuminate what is realistic.

No matter how it goes, I'll be starting conservatively on race day. I'd rather leave 1-2 minutes on the course because I didn't start fast enough than 5-10 because I blew up.

As for the mid-week run, I'm lumping my workout into it. I believe this is a Tinman idea. Whatever workout I need to do that day, I'll extend my warmup and/or cooldown to get to 14-16 miles.

Bdubs wrote:

I'm NOT going out at 545-550 pace no matter how well the training goes. BUT, i might train like that's my goal pace, does that make sense?

Yes, my concern is you can be just as likely to burn yourself out or injure yourself if you train above your head leading up to a race as you would to blow up in a race starting at an unsustainable pace. I don't know enough about you or 5:45 pace to adequately make that decision for you, just wanted to give you the thought to contemplate.

Jewbacca...I think that's a good plan regarding w/o and midweek runs for the marathon.

sounds like a plan. it’s too hard for me to guess a goal pace to use in training without a recent half or knowing more about your training. 5:45 sounds a little aggressive though, at least at this moment (unless you are in like 1:10-high/1:11-low shape). Even then it still sounds aggressive given your speed and mileage background. 5:55 or maybe 5:50 sounds good, but either way I’d say don’t force a set pace too early. I think it’ll become more clear during your build.