Calling out males who have internally debated to become a nurse vs. doctor

Re: “I know a guy who...”

There are clearly exceptions to the rule, but anecdotes do not make for a high level of evidence whatsoever.

VegetableSoup wrote:

I'm quite similar to you, except I've made up my mind to become a nurse practitioner. I'm a biochemistry major with a good enough GPA to get into medical school (my original plan), but have instead chosen to work my way towards a MSN degree. Much like your thought process, this decision was based off wanting a more balanced life. I'd like to continue running. I'd like to be competitive someday. Running is something I'd hate to give up

There's waaaaaay more to it than just a "good enough gpa" that's considered to get into med school. I had a 4.0 (math major) from Vanderbilt. Best mcat I could muster was a 28. I got wait listed twice: once to Creighton (1995), and once to Oregon Health Sciences (1996). Was really bummed out, but didn't want to go to DO school or dental school, so I took a job as a math teacher. Almost 15 years later, I sell commercial real estate out of Newport, CA.

Lol...no real ‘male’ would ever seriously consider being a nurse over a doctor...hahaha

How less could you care then?

In my experience, the training models for midlevel providers and physicians tend to generate two different approaches to medicine. Midlevel providers are extremely facile in the medical setting both logistically and often procedurally (minor procedures). That said, their practice is often very algorithmic and anecdotal in nature. In contrast, physicians have an intuitive, pathophysiologic based approach to medicine. When complex situations arise which don't fit a standard mold, physicians far exceed midlevels in their ability to adapt. This point was incredibly important to me. On the other hand, this focus on science at the expense of practical day-to-day skills often means physicians have a long learning curve when finally entering the healthcare system.

With regard to salaries, midelevels can make as much as physicians but only those at the far left of the bell curve. As an electrophysiologist, I come out of training making $700,000 which is frankly an order of magnitude greater than 90% of midlevels. This is not the most important thing in the world, but the argument that salaries are comparable is remarkably misinformed.

I'm a (male) nurse and can confirm everything the above poster wrote. I could not have written it any better. While nursing obviously isn't as lucrative as being a physician, you can still live comfortably, work 3 days a week and maintain much more of an enjoyable lifestyle, as opposed to be attached to your job 24/7, being a million dollars in debt at the end of school (I went for free), and spending years toiling at the bottom end of the ladder in whatever specialty you elect to pursue.

Those are all very good points for becoming a physician. I guess one of my greatest fears right now (note i'm still in my low 20s so I have no idea how my perspective will change down the road) is that i'll lead a life of self-absorption with too much dedication to my work without having the time to explore new interests that I might have down the line and invest in my family.

I'm not saying that dedicating one's life to their career is bad, I just don't think it's something that I will want for the long term. I was able to isolate myself during university to get the best GPA possible but at the expense of a lot of social contact. I was never a bright student and I had to make up for it with lots of hours of additional studying. To see bright students put in that amount of work during medical school sort of freaks me out in perspective since i'll probably be closed off 24/7.

Do you all think it's naive to be externalizing part of your happiness towards raising a great family? (I'm not saying doctors can't do it - but if we consider the same individual who went into a midlevel career, I would argue he would probably do a better job just by virtue of having more time)

Huhhuhuh wrote:

Can you explain to me how it is that you think doctors have less stress than nurses? Nurses don't take call, they don't have to stay up late reviewing charts and aren't involved in making life/death decisions (although they do carry out orders that flow from such decisions)

Nurses both take calls and "review charts." Pretty much every NP does.

1. Nursing/Medical school paths are two different paths with different philosophies and requirements. Physicians make tough decisions and problem solve, nurses do this to a lesser degree, and focus more on basic care.

2. You learn much more about anatomy/physiology/medicine in medical school than nursing/NP school. Will you feel bad not knowing as much about your career?

3. NP's usually deal more with "boring" cookie cutter diagnoses.

4. Average physician salary is probably around 250k, some double or triple that in certain specialties, but more $ = more training and responsibility usually.

5. Depending on the specialty and practice, you can have a life outside of medicine as a physician.

6. Less debt for nursing, but higher physician salary and repayment options make that irrelevant. Avg indebtedness for medical school around 200k, which is around a starting salary for a physician.

Male nurse here who has decided to attend medical school (applied and accepted). I can give some insight as to why I chose this.

I went to nursing school because I knew I wanted to be in healthcare. Nursing school was fun, not too hard, and I was able to run at a highly competitive level. Fast forward and now I am nurse. Nursing is a fantastic profession; one of the most flexible careers anyone can have. I would recommend it to almost anyone who wants to be in healthcare. You can do anything with it (bedside, management, administration, consultation). You name it, a nurse can do it. I can't guarantee it, but people who go into nursing find a happy career with a well balanced life for the most part (night shift can blow haha). As a male, you will be at a huge advantage in the field. I got scholarships, opportunities, and jobs cause of it. It is the one of few professions where being a male is huge advantage.

So why am I leaving? I explored every degree and path for advancement. I started a PhD, started looking into NP school, took some MBA classes... I have explored every path. I have worked at the bedside in almost all patient areas and worked in administration. While these paths are all awesome in their own regard, there was no path that gave me the fulfillment that the MD path has. If you want to be the healthcare provider who has the best education and training to save lives, stay on your med school path. I don't care who you are in healthcare. It cannot be denied that doctors are the best trained providers. NP school is rigorous, but absolutely nothing like medical school. Much of your training is on the job and through practicums, both not as rigorous as residency. You can find residencies for NP, but they are not too common. Again I can say from experience, med school is better, more complete training and education.

Now, are doctors the best providers? That is definitely up for debate. I have worked with amazing NPs. NPs (aka nurses) tend to have better social skills and are loved by patients and other providers. Both doctors and NPs provide amazing care. But when push comes to shove and that patient's life is in the balance, it comes down to the doctor. Not saying NPs and PAs cannot make calls like that, but it all comes down to the doctor and his/her license. It is a crap ton of responsibility that you have to be okay with.

So, moving forward, I would encourage you to examine the reasons why you want to go to med school or nursing. Ultimately you have to make the decision. I think you can be happy either way. I don't care what people say about 3 12 hour shifts or 80 hours a week, if you want to have a quality life you can make it happen. Either path requires sacrifices, you just have to decide what you want to sacrifice. You can have a family, kids, run, and have fun either way. I have a fiance, run, and do everything I want to do (in moderation of course). Decide where you want to be in 20 years and go from there. I am 25 and know I cannot see myself being in nursing for another 30-40 years; I need something more. More challenge, more responsbility, whatever. I have no problem taking orders or giving orders. I just know that at the end of the day going to medical school is my way of making the most out of myself and who I am. You seem like a very high achiever. You can succeed as a physician; you can dominate the field of nursing (assuming you have the intangibles to match your credentials). If you want to do medicine and can't help but have that nagging feeling that you will regret not going to medical school, please do not give up. Stick at for a little while longer and keep trying. You will regret it 2-3 years into nursing when you realize NP school will not provide the rigor of medical school. If you will be happy and satisfied with the NP route, please do it! I have so many friends on that route and they are so happy and content. It just wasn't for me. Find what is right for you!! [rant over haha]

My father chose to become a nurse in the Air Force for the work/life balance issues you state. This was in the 70s, and he was over the "boy nurse" stereotype even then. He worked as a nurse for a while, and then ended up being sent to Anaesthesia School by the Air Force, and became a CRNA. He has never regretted his decision, and built a very successful career in nursing both in and after he left the Air Force.

He would not have been able to get into medical school, but he enjoyed just as much of the benefits of helping people out and making a decent income on the nursing side. He always says he is really glad he didn't have to spend 8+ years in school and a residency to do it because he just did not have that kind of drive. He respects the hell out of people who do, but he wasn't one of them.

He and my mom are retired now and are living it up skiing all winter in Colorado.

male family doctor here.

paid my loans off 5 yr after residency.

making 300k+ past 10 years.

wife+4 kids with their 529s nearly fully funded.

modest house nearly paid off, 3 modest cars paid off.

just turned 45.

I DON'T WORK 60+ hours/wk. that's GARBAGE! Maybe 40-45.

many friends who are specialists, make 500k+. Some of them do work 50+ hours/wk, but also take more vacation time than I.

They spent a couple years longer training but it quickly paid off. My only regret is not being a little more patient at that point in my life and choosing family medicine because it was the easier road at the time.

No shame in being a NP. But realize your salary potential will be pretty limited. It's worth investing a couple extra years if you can to get a higher degree.

Congratulations on your acceptance! I am confident that you will love Medicine. In my experience, nurses who become physicians have a rare insight and diverse skill set. Best of luck to you!

NP are woefully undertrained for what they are trying to do - practice medicine independently.

realdoctor wrote:

NP are woefully undertrained for what SOME OF theM are trying to do - practice medicine independently.

FIFY

Most NP, working under the direct supervision of a physician, can become as good as any physician and better than many physicians in time.

Experience, problem solving skills, and work ethic trumps training.

I know a dude who does this and he has a nice life. Wife and four kids, nice house in the burbs. So he's not gay. But I personally would have a hard time begin called a nurse. Maybe it's time for a new lexicon.

I did strongly consider NP/PA prior to medical school. I decided to do med school because it was the better move for me in the long run, although more painful and difficult in the short term. I'm an ER doc now and made the right decision for myself. I also work with a large number of APPs who are very happy with their decision. Here are some things to consider:

-My NPs work the same hours as me and get paid half as much. They essentially do the exact same work as me and have the same medicolegal and administrative liability.

-Their schooling was much shorter. I had 8 years of training after undergrad. They had 3.

-They are likely in a better financial situation early in their career as there is less debt. Mid to late career there is no comparison. Physicians are far better off.

-They always work under a doc. They are quite restricted in their ability to practice independently. This is probably seen as a positive for a few years, then it becomes annoying. I have 65 year old men that have to get my approval(I'm 35) and they have been doing this almost as long as I've been alive.

-There is more flexibility for APPs. I'm mostly stuck in emergency for life(I'm perfectly happy with that). They can switch fields multiple times in a career.

-As a side note, from personal experience PAs are mostly very good. NPs are a mixed bag. Some are terrible, some are great. This is because of the ridiculously low entrance standards for NPs. Also they have some terrible NP schools out there. Go to PA school. Don't do NP. They have a terrible reputation because of all the bad apples.

You speak with experience in nursing, but not from experience with medical school and being a doctor. You haven't' even started yet.

runnER/DR wrote:

-As a side note, from personal experience PAs are mostly very good. NPs are a mixed bag. Some are terrible, some are great.

You coudl probably say that about doctors too, right?