How fast could a 15:00 5k guy get on EPO?

Yes you are right. EPO is a BIG DEAL even for the average Joe.

This is a good read:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-32983932

a 15 minute guy from sea level can easily achieve 1430, and maybe a lot more. because of the recovery factor, the tour cyclists report that they can go hard 2 days after a race, while the clean guy is wiped, and will never, ever keep up with the grind of 100 miles every day.....

rekrunner wrote:

- Drastic change in training from high mileage, to low mileage including more intensity

i.e. able to train more intensely because of the increased endurance attained through EPO use.

MurderDubs wrote:

deanoisgod wrote:

So that means around a 5 second improvement for the 1500m?

Guys like El Guerrouj and Morcelli then were really good for 3:32/33, if that.

Scary to think that British runners like John Mayock and Anthony Whiteman, who we've almost totally forgotten, were running 3:32 in the 90's, clean.

In with the obvious rejoinder: How do you know they were clean?

I don't, I just meant if these runners were clean (and other runners with similar times) and were considered almost alsorans at the time, then it's a scary thought.

Does seem strange that the top British runners of the 90's were a couple of seconds slower than the 80's if they were taking EPO too, and yet Africans suddenly were (many) seconds faster. The times of British runners in the 90's were consistant with the fact that British middle-distance running was going through a gradual decline. Also the fact that Britain was still producing world champion juniors such as David Sharpe who simply couldn't quite compete with the superhuman times the African were suddenly running as seniors. The sudden emergence of world record smashing superstars from corrupt North African countries as soon as EPO becomes available is not plausible, especially with subsequent failed tests and cases such as Aouita virtually admitting he and all the North Africans doped.

We went through this on another thread recently.

I should also mention Matthew Yates, one of those talented young runners from GB in the 90's who could run 3:31 and lost motivation when a whole group of Africans suddenly acquired the ability to run sub 3:30 every week without getting out of breath. I read yesterday about him posting comments recently on a north african drug cheats Facebook page. That's entirely consistent with somebody feeling (rightly) they were cheated out of superstardom and Olympic medals.

Yes.

Tyreek wrote:

...You seriously think that a change in coach and a change in training can take a 27 year old also ran in Irish Nationals and no past pedigree to running faster than Mark Carroll, John Treacy and Alistar Cragg.

rekrunner wrote:

Yes.

Tyreek wrote:

...You seriously think that a change in coach and a change in training can take a 27 year old also ran in Irish Nationals and no past pedigree to running faster than Mark Carroll, John Treacy and Alistar Cragg.

Of course. Renato was able to do something similar with the 4th fastest man ever for 10000m. It only took him 7 weeks to improve him from 28 plus to 26.30.

You still have to train and race - hard!

Read Tyler Hamilton's book (yes, OK it's another sport) where he says the difference EPO made to him was to allow him to go harder for longer - in both training and racing. It did not make the effort any more comfortable, just allowed him to endure the discomfort for longer. Since it also helped his recovery he was able to put out maximum efforts more often. So it's not a magic potion that allows you to sit on your couch and become a world class athlete!

I don't think that is quite right (I will explain below), but even if it is, lots of us train and race hard. If I could manage to put in 2 tracks sessions, a tempo workout and a long run each week, with full and thorough effort in the track sessions and the tempo run, I would be immeasurably better. Your comment seems to undervalue that point.When I say I don't think that is quite right, it is because EPO does more than allow you to recover quickly, it increases the amount of oxygen delivered to your muscles, allowing you to work harder (run faster) in each session; not just to endure each session better or sneak in more sessions.

mark b wrote:

You still have to train and race - hard!

Read Tyler Hamilton's book (yes, OK it's another sport) where he says the difference EPO made to him was to allow him to go harder for longer - in both training and racing. It did not make the effort any more comfortable, just allowed him to endure the discomfort for longer. Since it also helped his recovery he was able to put out maximum efforts more often. So it's not a magic potion that allows you to sit on your couch and become a world class athlete!

fsdfsddfdsfsdf wrote:

Where can we buy without having to travel to Mexico or Canada? Any legitimate sources? I'll be the guinea pig.

Canada? If you can't find illegal stuff in the US you won't find it in Canada.

You just order it form china and it will come in a mislabeled package.

You should be able to find and post lots of examples of this happening, then.I'll wait for your list...

rekrunner wrote:

Yes.

Tyreek wrote:

...You seriously think that a change in coach and a change in training can take a 27 year old also ran in Irish Nationals and no past pedigree to running faster than Mark Carroll, John Treacy and Alistar Cragg.

mark b wrote:

You still have to train and race - hard!

Read Tyler Hamilton's book (yes, OK it's another sport) where he says the difference EPO made to him was to allow him to go harder for longer - in both training and racing. It did not make the effort any more comfortable, just allowed him to endure the discomfort for longer. Since it also helped his recovery he was able to put out maximum efforts more often. So it's not a magic potion that allows you to sit on your couch and become a world class athlete!

No, but with a high-responder it can turn a "donkey" into a "racehorse." 🐎. That's the part Hamilton's leaving out...and I'm sure in his day he saw plenty of these transformations including a former teammate who would later become his enemy.

Plyometrics explains everything....

Mr. Obvious wrote:

You should be able to find and post lots of examples of this happening, then.

I'll wait for your list...

rekrunner wrote:

Yes.

15:00.... to 17:37

At the best, no difference.

Everyone who has run faster than Mark Carroll, John Treacy and Alistar Cragg, has done so with training.If you believe EPO can confer three minute gains in a 10K, I offer you the same challenge.You should be able to find and post lots of examples of this happening, then.I'll wait for your list...

Mr. Obvious wrote:

You should be able to find and post lots of examples of this happening, then.

I'll wait for your list...

rekrunner wrote:

Yes.

he'd run about 14 minutes,id say,or close to.depends on the dose,and how hard you train.

Being able to complete more hard sessions a week sounds like a magic potion to me. My least favorite days to train are the recovery days. What drudgery. If I could reduce the # of recovery days each week I'd be more enthused to run while also receiving the physical benefits of the more intense schedule.

Butterbeans wrote:

fsdfsddfdsfsdf wrote:

Where can we buy without having to travel to Mexico or Canada? Any legitimate sources? I'll be the guinea pig.

You need to find a guy by the name of Teddy Mitchell. I think that he's in Tucson or ABQ. He'll hook you up.

it's interesting that someone was actually trying to buy EPO on this thread. is that for real? any former 15:00 guys who have suddenly run 14:00 or 30:00 recntly? could be telling..

Who can run 13.15 without supportive treatment? Most guys are barely 13.40 -runners.

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

Axe You ? wrote:

Would EPO get them 13:30-sub 14 range? Would they be able to go 30:00 or better 10k?

How long does EPO take to kick in?

14:04 - 14:42

I think this is actually fairly accurate depending on how high of responder you are. It is important to note same as vaporfly's, and training in general, two runners of equal ability clean who then take EPO will almost certainly not improve at the same level. Some people are significantly higher or lower responders.

The rule of thumb I've always been taught is about 1-minute improvement over a 10K improvement.