Did Sebastian Coe blood dope?

what does this even mean?

rekrunner wrote:

Hardly seems likely, when you look at cycling in the same Western world during the same two decades. Lance showed us what "improved drug testing in the Western world" really means.

another wonderer wrote:

And I wonder whether the improved drug testing in the Western world after Coe's retirement resulted in stagnation in Western distance running for nearly 2 decades?

That's cycling not running. You have to look at running and only running to make conclusions about running.

So from 1986 to recently, blood doping was not detectable?!Unless obviously caught in flagrante with blood bags and needles in a hotel room.

Passport era wrote:

Kalla wrote:

When did the first test/s able to detect blood doping come into effect?

The athlete biological passport (ABP) debut in 2009, which utilizes a longitudinal profile for each athlete's hematological baseline values. The steriodal module was added in 2014. Abnormal patterns will be flagged by the software & WADA can open an investigation into a suspicious profile. However, an athlete never tests positive in a passport case, but can be sanctioned for anomalies that are conclusive for evidence of blood manipulation:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_passport

Kalla wrote:

So from 1986 to recently, blood doping was not detectable?!

Unless obviously caught in flagrante with blood bags and needles in a hotel room.

Passport era wrote:

The athlete biological passport (ABP) debut in 2009, which utilizes a longitudinal profile for each athlete's hematological baseline values. The steriodal module was added in 2014. Abnormal patterns will be flagged by the software & WADA can open an investigation into a suspicious profile. However, an athlete never tests positive in a passport case, but can be sanctioned for anomalies that are conclusive for evidence of blood manipulation:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_passport

There may even have been blood doping with epo-rich blood.

Hmmm.. I thought it was a conclusion about the state of drug testing, not about running.But, I don't need to look at cycling. During these two decades under question, for drug testing in the sport of running:- there was no test for EPO until 2000. Thereafter the window for detection of EPO in urine was very short, making the test easy to beat.- IAAF did not introduce out of competition testing (urine) until around 2002 or 2003- running did impose a hematocrit rule- there was no test for HGH until research started in 2004. The first test was used in 2008.- there was no test for blood transfusions until 2004. Self-blood transfusions are only indirectly detectable starting in 2009 with the ABP.Looking at cycling only corroborates that Western athletes from all nations found it routinely easy to evade the improvements in drug testing of the 1990's and 2000's, by staying one step ahead of the tests.I repeat, it hardly seems likely that improved drug testing was the cause for the two year Western stagnation in distance running.

Mr. Obvious wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Hardly seems likely, when you look at cycling in the same Western world during the same two decades. Lance showed us what "improved drug testing in the Western world" really means.

That's cycling not running. You have to look at running and only running to make conclusions about running.

Difficult to reply to such an ignorant, bile filled post.

Clearly you never met Harry Wilson, heard him speak or have spoken to any of the athletes he coached. All you need to do is look up the many tributes paid to Wilson when he. sadly, passed away a few years back.

With regards to his relationship with Ovett; it developed over the years. Initially Wilson wrote a daily schedule for Ovett which he expected the runner to follow. It was impossible for Wilson to supervise every Ovett training session because of the distance between them. There were no full time coaches in the UK in 1973! but Wilson always said he coached thinking athletes who, as time went on, would need less and less direct input from the coach. He refered to successful coaches as "lemmings" because if they do their job correctly they end up coaching themselves out of a job!

but towards the end of Ovett's career, when he was trying to move up to 5K, the two were working quite closely together once again.

You have argued several times that EPO does not work in elite distance runners (in contrast to cyclists) so to you, EPO should not be a factor to even consider in elite distance running. The improved drug testing in track and field post 1988 was out of season testing mainly for drugs such as anabolic steroids.

Kalla wrote:

So from 1986 to recently, blood doping was not detectable?!

Unless obviously caught in flagrante with blood bags and needles in a hotel.

Autologous transfusions weren't detectable until 2009. Homologous transfusions were detectable starting around the 2003/04 time period. Alex Vinokourov (current team mgr for Astana) was caught & sanctioned for a homologous blood transfusion in 2007 when he was riding for Astana.

When the EPO test came out around 2000, athletes just transitioned to autologous blood doping (most anyway). "Operation Puerto" with Dr. Fuentes in charge was one of Europe's biggest blood doping operations at the time. It was blood bag heaven for many cyclists, T&F athletes, soccer, etc. A couple of big names in cycling caught up in Operation Puerto was Armstrong's main rival Jan Ulrich and current Movistar rider Alejandro Valverde, who served a 2 yr sanction back in 2007. Armstrong & company did their blood doping through Ferrari.

Passport era wrote:

When the EPO test came out around 2000, athletes just transitioned to autologous blood doping (most anyway). "Operation Puerto" with Dr. Fuentes in charge was one of Europe's biggest blood doping operations at the time. It was blood bag heaven for many cyclists, T&F athletes, soccer, etc. A couple of big names in cycling caught up in Operation Puerto was Armstrong's main rival Jan Ulrich and current Movistar rider Alejandro Valverde, who served a 2 yr sanction back in 2007. Armstrong & company did their blood doping through Ferrari.

^This.

And let's not forget that Armstrong tested positive twice: once in 99, which was - clearly against the rules - excused with a back-dated TUE, and once in 01, which was covered up, coinciding with Armstrong's donation to UCI. So UCI back then behaved like the IAAF in this decade.

Armstrong also triggered the ABP alert a couple of times with strange raises in Hb concentrations, like certain British and Russian runners.

casual obsever wrote:

Armstrong also triggered the ABP alert a couple of times with strange raises in Hb concentrations, like certain British and Russian runners.

That was in the 2009 Tour de France. Armstong claimed he was dehydrated (like a certain British runner) and insisted that he rode the 2009 tour de France cleanly but on this occasion his excuse was not accepted by the governing bodies and his result was anulled.

another wonderer wrote:

You have argued several times that EPO does not work in elite distance runners (in contrast to cyclists) so to you, EPO should not be a factor to even consider in elite distance running. The improved drug testing in track and field post 1988 was out of season testing mainly for drugs such as anabolic steroids.

Why would anyone believe that 02-vector doping only works only for cyclists and not elite runners? 🤔. It's known to improve VO2max, LT, time to exhaustion...the same variables used in both cycling & distance running. There's some anecdotal evidence that 02-vector doping may be more effective with athletes who have a lower baseline Hct & VO2max. Nonetheless, anyone saying that EPO only works for cyclists & not runners is like saying that steriods work for bodybuilders, but not powerlifters.

casual obsever wrote:

And let's not forget that Armstrong tested positive twice: once in 99, which was - clearly against the rules - excused with a back-dated TUE, and once in 01, which was covered up, coinciding with Armstrong's donation to UCI. So UCI back then behaved like the IAAF in this decade.

Armstrong also triggered the ABP alert a couple of times with strange raises in Hb concentrations, like certain British and Russian runners.

Agree with the Armstrong situation.

However, on his ABP, it's my understanding that the software never flagged his values because the anomalies weren't significant enough to trigger any alert. He was maintaining a stable passport more conducive to recovery doping thereby keeping his Hct stable throughout the TdF instead of boosting it. Remember he arrogantly made public his passport about year before and up through the completion of the 09 TdF as part of his "I'm clean" comeback. It's because he published the data, the anti-doping experts got a chance to look at it and provide their conclusions.

It's somewhat similar to the Savinova case where her passport never triggered any alert while she was cleaning house with Gold medal performances at the 2011 WC & London. Only when the ARD recordings and scandal surfaced with her admission of PED use, did WADA retrospectively examine her ABP and detected values suggestive of "likely doping" & "highly suspicious" during that time period.

wada_independent_commission_report_1_en.pdf

Thanks for the correction. You are right: it wasn't the software which was alarmed, but the independent experts were.

RE Savinova et al.: yes, the ABP limits are just way too generous, allegedly to avoid false positives at all costs.

Oh no no no wrote:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/12259017.Doping_cheat_Jenkins_apos__role_in_Black_apos_s_success/

GREAT find!

Boe wrote:

Do you believe Western runners whom have adopted the Peter Coe training method have not succeeded due to lacking the natural speed of Sebastian Coe?

It seems like their method immensely benefited from Coe's natural speed and obviously talent.

No , it's because coe didn't do the peter coe training you are thinking over. coe was heavily enduranced trained and only ever did his golden 5k pace sessions in late winter early spring.

Unfortunately, a generation of western / european runners did what they thought coe did

spot on

rekrunner wrote:

I wonder if Coe's methods triggered a widespread trend among Western runners, towards emphasizing low volume and high intensity, causing Western stagnation in distance running for nearly two decades.

Boe wrote:

Do you believe Western runners whom have adopted the Peter Coe training method have not succeeded due to lacking the natural speed of Sebastian Coe?

It seems like their method immensely benefited from Coe's natural speed and obviously talent.

it was an amazing era

foster, bedford, mcloud, spedding, hutchings, buckner, ovett, coe, cram, elliott,

mckean, moorcroft, black, daley, throw in wendy sly - all world class. amazing!

then.... nothing

until radcliffe

if the chinese did this...

coe has to make it about himself

very early on

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8vx0MxU9L0

thought about this wrote:

coe has to make it about himself

very early on

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8vx0MxU9L0

You do realise this is an extract from a 1 hour programme made for the BBC prior to the London 2012 Games about the history of the 1500m in the Olympics?

The largest section was on Coe's 2 Olympic wins, so he wasn't just interviewed to pass comment on a programme about El G. He was an integral part of the documentary.