Doesn't Russian Doping Scandal Prove Canova is Right about EPO?

Farflung wrote:

EPO doesn't work if you don't also train. Russian men don't like to train, except at drinking.

Yep

It definitely proves Canova is right. Liliya was totally doped and she couldn't even sniff Paula's record. And we know that Paula was totally clean.

The only other explanation for this is that Liliya was a 21-minute 5k runner before she started EPO.

Given Russian doping was very well organised, why would they waste time on a program of men's distance running when they knew that a bunch of other nations had the market cornered on that one (huge amounts of dope and all).

Even with a concerted doping effort, the Russian men could never produce a group that challenged the doped Africans.

Simply not cost effective. Best to stick to winter sports and women.

Fred, I know why you're posting the article about Eddy Hellebuyck and Albuquerque being a hotbed of EPO distribution in the 90s.

I'll just note that it's been a long-established coincidence that Paula took a lot of visits to Albuquerque during that time. Just a coincidence--nothing more than that.

Nope Gary, I was not inferring anything about your wife. I did not want to go there, OK. Obviously somebody else will.

I was going there for the doc boiling the syringes, selling the EPO to a master's money maker, and a Russian Comrade's record setter.

casual obsever wrote:

jCo wrote:

Obviously I am talking about Men.

EPO does not work on men.

That "conclusion" would only make sense if only the Russians used EPO.

But yes, there are really only two possibilities here:

- either the Russians did not dope more than the rest

- or doping does not provide any significant boost.

My two cents, supported by the history of track and field, are on the first possibility.

Third possibility that some countries are allowed to use EPO and never test positive while others are not. Or, money.

Option 1 is a solid contender for how the system works.

Jon's opening line was "Seriously, all these doped athletes and not a single marathoner below 2:12"

I was responding that there are Russian marathoners under 2:12, and the doc in Albuquerque was one, and Eddy said he was selling EPO.

Secondly, the Russian doc who sold EPO set a record for 54 miles.

Yes, those Russians are evil, aren't they. I agree we should keep our focus there. Even if EPO isn't effective, it's still illegal and the Russians should be banned.

Weird stuff Gary. Why bring your wife into it.

And they aren't evil, just making a buck, some at 45.

You're really a downer to the holiday spirit. I wish we could all just go out and enjoy some eggnog together and you'd see that I really am a fair and level-headed guy who just has the best interests of the sport in mind.

rekrunnner wrote:

It definitely proves Canova is right. Liliya was totally doped and she couldn't even sniff Paula's record. And we know that Paula was totally clean.

The only other explanation for this is that Liliya was a 21-minute 5k runner before she started EPO.

WTH? You are obviously trolling but PR had blood-test off scores and Hb values all over her career post 2001 that were indicative of blood doping/EPO use. Compared with over 500 blood-test samples from British athletes PR was spitting out the highest off scores. This was not due to coincidence or chance or altitude training.

The IAAF and PR never gave any convincing explanation for her off scores and they were unable to show any data that would support an alternative explanation to blood doping or EPO use. Before 2001 (aged in late 20s) PR was ~14 50 min 5k runner and mid-high 30 min 10k runner ...

trollism wrote:

Given Russian doping was very well organised, why would they waste time on a program of men's distance running when they knew that a bunch of other nations had the market cornered on that one (huge amounts of dope and all).

Even with a concerted doping effort, the Russian men could never produce a group that challenged the doped Africans.

Simply not cost effective. Best to stick to winter sports and women.

Agree. As I started going through this thread what you've written is what I was thinking and going to post.

The top Spanish marathoners were all on EPO in the 90s/00s

They maxxed out at 2-06

Some of them seem to have gained 2-3 minutes, it's hard to know exactly.

The top Spanish marathoners were all on EPO in the 90s/00s

They maxxed out at 2-06

Some of them seem to have gained 2-3 minutes, it's hard to know exactly.

I just want to state that the sub-2hr Project is incredulous because it would have to break the existing WR by over 2.5%... well, Paula Radcliffe crushed the WR by more than 2.5%!!!

Doping + Genetics + Training Hard + Cover Up = Paula Radcliffe

It is rekrunner's personal troll with an extra n in his name.

Do you see some women on the all-time list with bans for doping?

Let's take a quick look:

1 2:15:25 Paula Radcliffe

2 2:17:18 Paula Radcliffe

3 2:17:42 Paula Radcliffe

4 2:18:20 Liliya Shobukhova

5 2:18:37 Mary Keitany

6 2:18:47 Catherine N'dereba

7 2:18:56 Paula Radcliffe

8 2:18:57 Rita Sitienei Jeptoo

After Ms. Paula Radcliffe, the #2 female of all-time was banned for doping and the #5 female of all-time was banned for doping.

(Incidentally, the top 8 male marathon performances on the all-time list all have managers from the Netherlands. It is just a coincidence.)

Paula did her training before her world record 2:15:25 marathon in Albuquerque, New Mexico.

Here is the math on Ms. Paula Radcliffe:

Ms. Paula Radcliffe's 2:15:25 is equivalent (Purdy tables) to a 4:00 mile, 8:00 3K, 13:53 5K, and 29:03 10K. Paula is way beyond Almaz Ayana, Wang Junxia, and the Dibabas. Paula is the best female long distance athlete who has ever lived on this planet.

From wiki:

She has previously asked for the results of a blood test taken at the London Marathon to be made public, saying that she had "absolutely no objection to my test being released".[115]

In 2015, in the wake of revelations of widespread doping in athletics,[116] Radcliffe said that, unlike some other prominent British athletes, she would not be releasing her blood-test history, and discouraged other athletes from doing so.[117] She was later indirectly identified as a suspected doper by MP Jesse Norman during a parliamentary inquiry into blood doping.[118][119] In response, Radcliffe issued a statement in which she "categorically denied" cheating in any form and said she has "nothing to hide".[120] Shortly afterwards, her three suspect test results were leaked, though Radcliffe still refused to release her complete blood-test history.[121] In late November 2015, the IAAF declared that the accusation were "based on the gross misinterpretation of incomplete data". The UK Anti Doping Agency, having received Radcliffe's blood test history via the IAAF, stated that "Ukad has come to the same conclusion as the IAAF review that there is no case to answer".[122]

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(Ross Tucker has Paula as a 7/10 on his "suspicious" scale.)

Here are some OFF scores from Ross Tucker's website:

The OFF score= hemoglobin(g/dL) x 10 - 60 x (square root of the reticulocyte%).

Here is the information I used to come to a conclusion on Ms. Radcliffe:

On Oct. 2, 2003…two days before the World Championship Half-Marathon that she won…Paula had a blood test result which had a hemoglobin value of 12.8 g/dL, and a reticulocyte score of 0.59% (of RBCS), which make up an OFF score of 82 pre-race.

On Oct. 4, 2003…Paula had a blood test result which had a hemoglobin value of 15.6 g/dL, and a reticulocyte score of 0.47% (of RBCs), which make up an OFF score of 114.87 post-race.

That is a 21.88% increase in hemoglobin value in 2 days, from 12.8 g/dL to 15.6 g/dL. This hemoglobin value is also above the normal range for a female of 12.0 g/dL to 15.0 g/dL.

Paula Radcliffe also has a history of anemia (= low hemoglobin values). Paula fixed her anemia problem really well on multiple occasions. Paula also had a hemoglobin value of 16.2 g/dL in an out of competition test taken in Monte Carlo, Monaco on Feb. 7, 2012.

To get a rough estimate of hematocrit score (which many people are more familiar with), the hemoglobin score can be multiplied by 3, so the 12.8 Hb would be roughly equivalent to a hematocrit value of 38.4%. A 21.88% increase in hematocrit value in 2 days, from 38.4% to 46.8% is a very large magnitude increase...in a very short amount of time.

Even severe dehydration, which causes a loss of plasma volume, and elevates Hb values, does not increase hemoglobin values more than 15%…even in extreme dehydration after running for 2.5 to 3 hours and losing 4% of bodyweight. Paula only ran for 1 hour 7 minutes and also won the race.

Altitude training can increase Hb values by 5 to 10%…and takes 3 to 6 weeks to work. All types of EPO take weeks to work. Cobalt chloride takes weeks to work. Inhalation of xenon or krypton gas to increase erythropoiesis also takes weeks to work. Hypoxia-inducible factor (HIF) stabilizers such as FG-4592 also take weeks to work. No other drug or substance can work in 2 days to increase hemoglobin values by that much.

The only way to increase hemoglobin values by 21.88% in 2 days is:

1) An autologous blood transfusion by Ms. Paula Radcliffe.

(The reticulocyte score also shows a 20% decrease (from 0.59% of RBCs to 0.47% of RBCs), which is also consistent with a blood transfusion, since the reticulocytes are diluted by the infusion of the old stored blood.)

My conclusion is:

Ms. Paula Radcliffe is a Brit Doper-Cheater-Liar.

For more reading on the mechanism of action:

Paula is OFF the charts in every way.

Go Paula.

Yes thank you. "rekrunnner" =/= "rekrunner"I see no reason for me to repeat old discussions.But regarding the topic of this thread, we can see which events the Russians did well in. It does make me wonder where the men were, outside of racewalking. The same with "Ma's Army", why not "dope" the men too?

rjm33 wrote:

off scores madness wrote:

WTH? You are obviously trolling but PR had blood-test off scores and Hb values all over her career post 2001 that were indicative of blood doping/EPO use. Compared with over 500 blood-test samples from British athletes PR was spitting out the highest off scores. This was not due to coincidence or chance or altitude training.

The IAAF and PR never gave any convincing explanation for her off scores and they were unable to show any data that would support an alternative explanation to blood doping or EPO use. Before 2001 (aged in late 20s) PR was ~14 50 min 5k runner and mid-high 30 min 10k runner ...

It is rekrunner's personal troll with an extra n in his name.

...

Go Paula.

jCo wrote:

Obviously I am talking about Men.

EPO does not work on men.

You utter moron, the data in terms of wattage, suggests that cyclists were faster/fitter during the EPO era (up to 7 years ago) then they are now.

Sub 12:50 for 5k used to be a far more common occurrence on the track.

Subway, you forget cyclists took more than EPO - they took testosterone as well.