how can I stop getting tired at miles 17 or 18 of long runs and races?

Become keto-adapted. Start eating lower carb/higher fat. More mileage, much slower (MAF HRformula of 180-age, or at least two minutes/mile slower than your previous marathon pace-not hoped-for pace). Run longer long runs (up to 25 miles) and or run long runs with pre-depletion (i.e. 10 miles the evening before, no carbs until after morning long run of 18-20).

There is no easy way, but there IS a long-term way.

In general, more mileage seems like it definitely might help.

How about starting with an 18 miler where you start slow and finish fast? Go real easy the first 12 miles, then pick it up a little bit each mile and run the 18th mile at MP. That will give you some confidence.

Also you might be overestimating your marathon ability.

> I will note that in every marathon I have run (10+), I have faded badly.. but only after about 18 miles or so.

18 is where marathon racing starts. It sounds to me like you are undertrained for the pace you're trying to hit. Why not try to set a less ambitious goal for this marathon, run an easier first half, and see if you can maintain or even pick up the pace at 18.

I would counter something already posted. It would be good to add some "doubles,:" but I would say to add that 20 -30 min am run on your 'hard" days NOT your easy days. The last thing that you want to do is not recover on your easy days - esp 4 weeks out.

I agree it could be a fueling issue. I'd try eating a decent meal before your run - instead of getting up and starting your run first thing in the morning, eat a decent breakfast and run at like 11AM.

That won't help much for your actual race though since I'm sure it's early in the morning.

How long have you been running at this point? Over or under 2 hours? If over, by how much?

sothefw wrote:

How long have you been running at this point? Over or under 2 hours? If over, by how much?

Looking through my data it appears that I really start to slow at the 2 hour mark. By 2:30 I've slowed considerably. (3ish hour marathoner).

joho wrote:

My initial thought was your MP isn't your MP.

If you can't run MP+15 for those distances then you need to reevaluate what your true marathon pace is.

This.

I suggest taking a short nap at 10 miles. After starting up again you should be vigorously refreshed by mile 17 and finish strong.

theres long and then theres wrote:

Also you might be overestimating your marathon ability.

I concur. OP: your weekly volume could be 40, 50, or 80 mpw but if you can't hold pace beyond 18 miles then you are simply going out too fast. Your perceived MP... How did you arrive at that?

Used to be Rono wrote:

theres long and then theres wrote:

Also you might be overestimating your marathon ability.

I concur. OP: your weekly volume could be 40, 50, or 80 mpw but if you can't hold pace beyond 18 miles then you are simply going out too fast. Your perceived MP... How did you arrive at that?

Recent races.. 1 mile time trial, 5k, 10k, etc. No half though.

I agree with the others that it is probably a fueling issue.

Also it takes 24-72 hours for stuff to pass through your digestive tract so taking gels is not your problem. A normal bowel test will show less than 20% of the material at 5 days. Slowed is over 20% after 5 days.

Sounds like something is definitely up with your glycogen stores and the food you are taking in before race day (the 2-4 day window) and the day of.

Many things work for different people but you could try having a couple easier days before your long run trying different nutritional approaches and see what works.

I have to cut out most veggies to limit gas on race day but I don't change much else.

simple truth wrote:

joho wrote:

My initial thought was your MP isn't your MP.

If you can't run MP+15 for those distances then you need to reevaluate what your true marathon pace is.

This.

This again.

The difference between an all out effort at 18 miles is only 10 seconds faster than an all out marathon effort. I would scale your goal pace back 10-15 seconds for the upcoming race.

In regards to the fueling issue:

In OP's case the problem is that gels are stimulating bowel movement, not that the gels are passing through the entire GI tract.

I suspect it's the type of carbs you're consuming that could be an issue. Small molecule sugars (namely glucose, fructose, and sucrose) can be tough on GI tract during running because they create high osmotic pressure across cell membranes. Instead of Gatorade try out some sport drinks and gels where maltodextrin is the top ingredient. Maltodextrin is a polysaccharide, slower burning, and much less likely to cause GI upset. It's the only thing you'll find in elite marathoners' bottles.

It's also important to start taking in carbs early; long before the fade starts to set in. Take frequent small sips rather than few big gulps. As a "sugar burner" myself I find timing makes a huge difference.

Hope some of that might prove useful. Good luck man!

fafafeooey3 wrote:

Inevitably I get tired, and start to slow, at around 17 or 18. This is true if I start fast, slow, aggressive, conservative, with water, without water, with gels, withouts gels, etc. I run about 60 mpw doing the typical threshold workout and occasional track session along with the long run each week. I'm training for a marathon next month (4 weeks out) and today's long run was going swimmingly (MP + 15-30 secs as I wanted a hard effort) until mile 17 where I had to slow to MP +45 and basically finished at MP + 60. I think I'm screwed for the marathon. I will note that in every marathon I have run (10+), I have faded badly.. but only after about 18 miles or so.

Any suggestions (not necessarily for the next 4 weeks obviously, but just getting to the point where I don't really hit the way as badly)?

Visit Alberto for one of his world famous Androgel (tm) massages. For $50 bucks extra he'll add a happy ending.

This same thing happens to a guy I coach- he literally refuses to take gels after mile 20. Was on BQ pace at Santa Rosa until mile 23 then slowed to like 10:30 pace for the last 5k and missed his goal. Just said he couldn't take a gel. Very frustrating to watch, my heart breaks for this dude.

My suggestion, and maybe it's already been said, is to find a fuel source that works for you- be it one of the superstarches (Ucan, Vitargo) or honey packets, mayve those damn Smucker's jelly packs from diners, something that you can get down after mile 15 that won't wreck your stomach. Friggin' Jolly Ranchers, anything that will give you sugar.

If that doesn't work then you gotta get fat-adapted. Do runs in a fasted state first thing in the morning. Long runs on nothing but water and electrolytes.

I'd suggest running more miles, too. I'd aim for a peak at 2-3 weeks out of at least 72 miles per week.

rojo wrote:

I think the easiest way to not get tired at mile 17 or 18 of the marathon is to simply not run miles 17 or 18.

Stick to halves and your problem will be solved. Yes, you'll be screwed for the marathon but you already are screwed so this way you'll avoid yourself the discomfort.

If you can't win, quit. That's the mantra we all learned growing up right?

No but there is a saying horses for courses.

Why is everyone obsessed with marathons? I did a marathon at 18 then avoided the distance until I was over 40 as I found I was better at and preffered shorter distances. I liked doing long runs in training over the mountains just not racing so far on the roads.

Numerous runners at my club would be better off avoiding the distance altogether and a few have effectively been finished with injuries after just a couple of years running and plodding round a road marathon.

In fact nearly every runner want wants do the marathon - I hate the distance. I asked Mara Yamauchi what her favourite distance was - half marathon. Liz Mclolgan Nutall mentioned similar online that she preferred shorter distances. they do it for money and medals but surely at least some others can concentrate on other distances

Fluid intake diet and pacing is they key. Would need to know times on other distances to see the problem, but always limited online.

marathon pace long runs wrote:

I had the same problem, smoked my last marathon.

Here's how I solved it. My longest run was 21 miles.

#1) Tempo runs.

#2) Fast finish long runs

#3) Long runs half easy, half at MP.

#4) Hilly long runs.

#5) Doubles & get that weekly mileage up to 60mpw at least.

Yes!

Assuming that I'd built up to an 18 mile long run (lots of 15-16 milers in the preceding 2-3 months), I never had trouble completing it. But you've got to stay hydrated (I cached water bottles along the course), especially if the weather is 65 or above); and you've got to run the first half at 75-78% of max HR and no more than that. I run out and back, with a HR monitor, so I've learned how the run should feel. It should certainly feel, at halfway, as though you're now ready to slowly turn up the burners.

A fast finish 18 miler would have 15 at EZ/steady pace; 1 or 2 at marathon pace (85%), and the last 2 or 1 mile at 5K intensity, which is probably 10K/half-marathon pace at that point.

I never took any gels on my marathon long runs. Just a cup of coffee with some milk about an hour before. I was able to run three hours like that. But you have to build up to it.

rojo wrote:

I think the easiest way to not get tired at mile 17 or 18 of the marathon is to simply not run miles 17 or 18.

Stick to halves and your problem will be solved. Yes, you'll be screwed for the marathon but you already are screwed so this way you'll avoid yourself the discomfort.

If you can't win, quit. That's the mantra we all learned growing up right?

That's certainly true for your marathon career, rojo.