greatest ever at 800m

Rudisha couple WRs in the 800, two Olympic Golds in the 800 (very rare) and a couple world champs golds in the 800m. First and only man sub 1:41.

He is the GOAT at 800m.

Rudisha has achieved the most over 800m, although it should be remembered that Snell didn't have World Champs to compete in during his days, and Coe & Juantorena only had a couple at the end of their careers to contest, when they were held every 4 years.

In that respect Kipketer and Rudisha have the advantage of far more opportunities to win global Champs (every 2 years outdoors, plus indoors)

No one else from modern era is in the conversation apart from Cruz. Ryun certainly isn't.

The 3 main criteria therefore should be World Records, Olympic medals and annual ranking points accrued.

World Records: -

Snell - 1 (1:44.3) - 1.4sec improvement on old record; record holder for 11 years, though equalled by Wottle & Doubell)

Juantorena - 2 (1:43.50/1:43.44) - improved old record by 0.26 sec; record holder for 3 years)

Coe - 2 (1:42.33/1:41.73) - improved old record by 1.71 secs; biggest improvement in WR since Harbig in 1939; record holder for 18 years - longest anyone has held the 800m WR for). Also 2 indoor WR.

Kipketer - 2 (1:41.24/1:41.11) + 1 = (1:41.73); improved WR by 0.62; record holder for 13 years. Also 2 indoor WR.

Rudisha - 3 (1:41.09/1:41.01/1:40.91) - in 3 instalments, has only improved the WR by 0.20 secs. Record holder for 6 years now.

In terms of number of WR's set outdoors, then the order is clearly Rudisha, Kipketer, Coe, Juantorena, Snell.

But in terms of longevity as WR holder, the order is Coe, Kipketer, Snell, Rudisha then Juantorena.

And in terms of level of improvement, then it is Coe, Snell, Kipketer, Juantorena and Rudisha at the back!

If we give 5 points for 1st down to 1 for 5th, then the totals work out as ~

Coe - 13

Kipketer - 11

Rudisha - 8

Snell - 8

Juantorena - 5

In terms of Olympic medals, then Rudisha and Snell are at the top with 2 golds apiece. Juantorena has 1 gold, Coe 2 silvers and Kipketer a silver and bronze. In order to make a comparison with the points system for World records, then I suggest 5 points for a gold, 3 for a silver and 1 for a bronze, which seems fair to me. So we have -

Rudisha -10

Snell - 10

Coe - 6

Juantorena - 5

Kipketer - 4

I would put Rudisha's 2 golds marginally above Snell's, because he front ran a WR in his first title. That in itself probably deserves a bonus of 2 or 3 points.

In terms of World ranking points, then it is quite close between the top 3:

1. Kipketer - 84 (10 points)

2. Coe - 78 (=6)

3. Rudisha - 73 (83 from Jan - 8 points)

4. Snell - 41 (=4)

5. Juantorena - 34 (=2)

This is based on 10 points for a No. 1 ranking in any given year, down to 1 point for 10th. Although it should be noted that the 2016 world rankings haven't come out yet, so it is very likely that Rudisha will jump into 2nd place on 83 points in a few weeks, yet still 1 point shy of Kipketer for another season at least.

As ranking points cover such a long period of time, an entire career in fact, then it would seem sensible to award 10 points for highest, 8 for 2nd, 6 for 3rd, 4 for 4th and 2 for 5th.

That would give ~

Kipketer- 10

Rudisha - 8

Coe - 6

Snell - 4

Juantorena - 2

If I've done my sums right then that should give a grand total of: -

1. Rudisha - 26

=2. Kipketer - 25

=2. Coe - 25

4. Snell - 22

5. Juantorena - 12

If we take into consideration Rudisha's WR while winning in London 2012, then he is a clear overall winner.

Positions 2-4 are v. close and it comes down to which category one considers more important.

2 laps wrote:

Deanouk wrote:

Dear Moderators,

Calculus has posted this nonsense along with all the other posts on here yesterday, several times before. Each time they have been removed. He waits a week or so and reposts them again. He is basically telling the moderators that they can't censor him.

I think you meant Calculo has had his posts removed only for them to appear a week or so later, equally nonsensical.

His posts antagonise and offend. They should be removed.

HIs posts entertain. They should be glorified.

Excellent analytical post 2 Laps based on actual data!

Top stuff wrote:

Excellent analytical post 2 Laps based on actual data!

Agreed. And criteria that is equally accessible to any athlete competing since 1947.

Deanouk wrote:

Top stuff wrote:

Excellent analytical post 2 Laps based on actual data!

Agreed. And criteria that is equally accessible to any athlete competing since 1947.

In particular, Mal Whitfield.

Nice work 2 Laps!

How does Cruz stack up based on your criteria?

He has 800m Olympic gold and silver and a 1:41 PR.

Top five surely?

John Woodruff

This is generally very good analysis, I would say Snell's 1962 time, if we give him an extra 1.0-1.2s for a more modern track, would have been beaten by Coe in 1979 or at the earliest equalled by Juantorena (14-17 years). But this would not impact on his improvement as the previous record holder would also hypothetically benefit from this gain. But from this your list reads of a correct list of World record holders in reverse order Rudisha, Kipketer, Coe, Snell with I suppose Juantorena but I would go with Cruz or Whitfield as Juantorena was more of a 400m runner.

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

This is generally very good analysis, I would say Snell's 1962 time, if we give him an extra 1.0-1.2s for a more modern track, would have been beaten by Coe in 1979 or at the earliest equalled by Juantorena (14-17 years). But this would not impact on his improvement as the previous record holder would also hypothetically benefit from this gain. But from this your list reads of a correct list of World record holders in reverse order Rudisha, Kipketer, Coe, Snell with I suppose Juantorena but I would go with Cruz or Whitfield as Juantorena was more of a 400m runner.

I agree. I would also put Whitfield and Cruz above Juantorena. The problem with Cruz is that although very close to the WR, Coe got there first, so he's not going to get any points for world records. Perhaps there could be a way to incorporate points for those who got close to a WR or had lots of times at top of list, but that would be a very difficult thing to quantify.

Rudisha and Kipketer are great, no doubt. But I still lean towards Coe. The other two are 800m specialists, rarely competing at other distances. Coe held WRs at the mile, 1500 and 1000. He certainly would have run faster 800 times if he had focused solely on that distance

I enjoyed that Kipkurgat video. Was that Hooker guy the father of the pole vaulter?

I still can't get over how messed-up the arm action of Boit looks and how well he ran despite said arm action!

SlowFatMaster wrote:

I enjoyed that Kipkurgat video. Was that Hooker guy the father of the pole vaulter?

I still can't get over how messed-up the arm action of Boit looks and how well he ran despite said arm action!

Wilfred Bungei had an unusual action but still did very well.

Yep, Bill Hooker (46.4/1:45.36) is Steve's Dad.

Bib #1 wrote:

Rudisha and Kipketer are great, no doubt. But I still lean towards Coe. The other two are 800m specialists, rarely competing at other distances. Coe held WRs at the mile, 1500 and 1000. He certainly would have run faster 800 times if he had focused solely on that distance

I hear you and I agree. At his best I think he was the most complete 2 lap runner I've ever seen, capable of winning in any type of race. I don't think he reached his potential based on time and probably would have run faster had he not run the 1500 as well.

However, in terms of actual achievements, Rudisha has a better overall claim as the GOAT. Coe lost some big races he should never have lost, sometimes due to illness, but 1 due to poor tactics. Had he won in Moscow then his claim would be very strong.

It's all very well talking shoulda, coulda, woulda, which I do indulge in from time to time, but in the last analysis it has to come down to what actually happened. Not what could have happened in an alternate universe with perfect pacing, drafting, sleep, etc.

There's a poor case for Ryun's 800m bid, despite his converted 880y 800m world record. He never competed in a single international level 800m race, never won even a national 800m title, and his top five 800m times are national class at best (excluding his converted record) that lastest about 5 minutes.

Ryun never broke the 800m world record, officials, rightly or wrongly (debatable, certainly wouldn't happen now) converted his 880y time to be equal to Snell's world record which they held jointly for a few years. Some lists don't give Ryun credit for being joint holder because it was an 880y not an 800m.

Ryun is even the greatest 800m from the US which has several guys with Olympic 800m golds and 800m world records.

Isn't

But it should be noted that Coe won but one international championship at 800m in his entire career. So Snell and Whitfield perhaps should be ranked above Coe.