people really recommend squats and deadlifts? I'm pretty fast and have never done them

My experience wrote:

They can help make your legs very strong, but in ways that are detrimental to your running. At least, they won't cause harm, but they always slow you down, because the muscles get too big, too strong, and they are not specific to running. Thus they take more energy, and create needless weight and demands for the body to carry. At the worse, they can damage your legs and end your serious running forever.

If you want to make your legs strong, run hills, or run faster repetitions, and stay away from the weights. Things like yoga, pilates, calisthenics and floor exercises in moderation should be fine, but don't take them to extremes.

This guy (or gal) speaks the truth. I have always lifted a lot my entire life but for guys above Miler/1500 doing squats and deadlifts (especially heavy weights) will slow you down. I too would recommend hills, especially steep inclines at very fast pace at relatively short distances (100 to 150 meters).

The Ironic Chef wrote:

Are you this fast?...

http://tinypic.com/r/jrwh2b/9

Neck pad is a horrible idea.

Changes center of gravity, causing you to possibly lean too far forward, causing back strain.

Also could cause the bar to oscillate when it should be planted into your traps/shoulders. This oscillation could cause stability issues and back pain.

Gloves look cool though....

Alan

Runningart2004 wrote:

Science is scary...

http://saudeemovimento.net.br/wp-content/uploads/bsk-pdf-manager/588_THE_IMPACT_OF_RESISTANCE_TRAINING_ON_DISTANCE_RUNNING_PERFORMANCE.PDF

Summary:

Resistance training improves running economy in trained runners.

Explosive movements and plyometrics improves running economy and performance in trained runners.

If you are sore after heavy lifting its because you don't lift often enough. Follow a basic linear progression, start twice a week 75% max for 3 x 8, as running training intensity increases reduce volume to once a week while increasing intensity to 85% max for 3 x 5.

Don't squat and deadlift the same workout. Do one or the other in an alternating fashion. Add DB lunges, dips, pullups.

Alan

Most what you write it seems you are reciting from a magazine. "Follow a linear progression?" Seriously, Dude? You obviously don't know the constraints an elite distance runner faces while trying to do heavy weights at the same time. Your workout regimens are unrealistic for someone who is competing on an elite level.

While I'm at it she's impinging her wrists. Keep wrists straight. If you lack the shoulder mobility to keep wrists straight with a close grip then take a wide enough grip that allows you to keep wrists straight

Because "linear progression" is magazine speak?

4 exercises in the gym in unrealistic? That might take 30 min total time.

You do realize doing light weight for more reps is much more taxing?

Galen in the weight room:

And if you think all he does is fancy functional "video friendly" workouts you are wrong.

Look up Mo Farah and squatting while we are at it.

Alan

Alan definitely is not reciting from a book or magazine. From what I've read over the years he's well versed in many training methods and can apply principles. Agree or disagree his opinions are thought provoking.

Coach wrote:

Alan definitely is not reciting from a book or magazine. From what I've read over the years he's well versed in many training methods and can apply principles. Agree or disagree his opinions are thought provoking.

I've been a big advocate that runners of all levels should lift weights beyond the nautilus endurance circuit we all grew up with. I've been advocating this for a good 8 years or so. Rupp and Farah lift weights and still people don't buy into it. Numerous studies show benefits and people don't buy into it.

I get it. Running attracts a certain set of people who are intrinsically against the gym culture. It is what it is.

Is lifting gonna knock minutes off your time? No probably not, but it's an "extra" like stretching, foam rolling, massage, etc that could be beneficial.

Alan

That flo rack link isn't the best. Now I do recall seeing some other videos where

Al sal and Galen were squatting relatively heavy but there is nothing heavy in the video except when Galen is doing lunges with what looks like a 50-70 lb dumbbell. Granted I think what they are doing that is depicted in the specific link is interesting and I've seen evidence of pascal Dobert and Evan jager doing similar (Wisco to worlds; runners world past 1-2 years). But there's nothing heavy seen. I did read in one thread on LRC about Seb Coe training at some high school in Illinois and out lifting the hs football team, besides also some heavy leg press stuff I saw him do in the Born to Run video documentary.

Runningart2004 wrote:

Debbbie Dddddd wrote:

Most what you write it seems you are reciting from a magazine. "Follow a linear progression?" Seriously, Dude? You obviously don't know the constraints an elite distance runner faces while trying to do heavy weights at the same time. Your workout regimens are unrealistic for someone who is competing on an elite level.

Because "linear progression" is magazine speak?

4 exercises in the gym in unrealistic? That might take 30 min total time.

You do realize doing light weight for more reps is much more taxing?

Galen in the weight room:

http://www.flotrack.org/video/684139-rupp-with-alberto-in-the-weightroom

And if you think all he does is fancy functional "video friendly" workouts you are wrong.

Look up Mo Farah and squatting while we are at it.

Alan

When is an elite high school runner (or collegiate) going to do heavy weights? You can't do before your workout and they can't really do after. Doing 3 x 20 deadlifts at a lower weight is much less taxing than 3 x 10 at a pretty high weight. A runner could do a workout after the former but would be much higher after the latter. I am not against doing heavy weights (in fact I was a serious weightlifter) but it is tough for a very good distance runner to incorporate heavy squats/deadlifts into his or her routine.

They are good exercises, but overhyped. Neither are essential.

Squats??? wrote:

I'm pretty fast at 1500-8K, D1 runner and I have never done a squat or deadlift. The only maybe three people I know that do them suffer from back tightness and they don't really compete. Yet every time I come on letsrun, someone is telling someone to do heavy squats and deadlifts. Wtf? Are they serious????? Or just trolling?

luv2run wrote:

Well, you might be even faster if you did them.

Or, he might be 200 pounds and not be able run any more.

When is an elite runner going to do a double? You can't do it right before your workout and you can't do it right after because you are too tired. Oh wait, I can do my workout in the morning then lift in the afternoon, plus once I adapt lifting weights has been shown to shift hormones to a more anabolic state.

Also we aren't talking about doing 3x20 or 3x10 that is to light. More like 2x3-5.

Alan Webb did squats and Olympic lifts per the hammer media podcast on strength for endurance athletes.

Are we speaking the same language here? "3 times 20 etc" The point of a dead lift in your regimen is to go max heavy for a very short period. My single dumbbell dead lifts for instance, I do with a weight ( repeated for each arm) where I'm done ( each arm) after anywhere from 15 seconds to 65 seconds. I warm up for a while before and then unlike what some people un realistically suggest (this Alan guy) my arms are quite sore and shot for the rest of the day and about 1.5 days after. My whole body is generally tired for the same period and I'm unable to really "get after" any activities with much chutzpah. And I believe that's the point and to be prepared for properly with post workout provisions and arrangements.

Also for incorporating true heavy lifting occasionally into your lifestyle that has lots of running, you'll have to taper your running. Max dead lift will leave your shoulders and rotator cuffs shot. You'll realize how important rotator cuffs are (and arm powered propulsion) to running locomotion. Hard running for a period after will not be possible nor desirable. Likewise, hard running before the dead lift will totally take away from ability to perform it (hence taper). And likewise, you'll see from that angle how hard running depends on arm propulsion (and rotator cuffs) and how hard running will sap rotator cuff strength and heavy lifting ability.

Runningart2004 wrote:

blah blah nonsense

Debbbie Dddddd wrote:

Most what you write it seems you are reciting from a magazine. "Follow a linear progression?" Seriously, Dude? You obviously don't know the constraints an elite distance runner faces while trying to do heavy weights at the same time. Your workout regimens are unrealistic for someone who is competing on an elite level.

He's 5' 5 and 200 pounds, had talent but blew it out living weights.

Now he can't run any more, and wastes his time posting nonsense on the forum.

Runningart2004 wrote:

The Ironic Chef wrote:

Are you this fast?...

http://tinypic.com/r/jrwh2b/9

Neck pad is a horrible idea.

Changes center of gravity, causing you to possibly lean too far forward, causing back strain.

Also could cause the bar to oscillate when it should be planted into your traps/shoulders. This oscillation could cause stability issues and back pain.

Gloves look cool though....

Alan

I know there are some problems with using a neckpad. However, some people actually can't squat heavy without one. When you are at an extremely low body fat and have small trap muscles due to the physical requirements of distance running, in addition to vertebrae that stick out unusually far, it becomes impossible to do a squat with a bare barbell due to the barbell resting straight on the vertebrae. For me, and maybe for Paula Radcliffe, it is either use a neckpad or don't do a back squat.

I have had no ability or desire to gain weight from lifting while running and usually get injured if I try to add much weight. But the one thing that I have been very successful with is preventing or overcoming injuries with body weight exercises and body weight squats in particular, going almost all the way to the ground (with a wide stance, making it possible for me to do this without hurting myself), got me over my long-recurring calf injuries and I have been able to avoid them completely for the past year as a result. Just do a few of these any time the calves are starting to get tight.

Dont do back squats the risks outweigh the gains.

Front squats, goblet squats, and reaching squats are excellent alternatives. warm up with reaching squats which really hits the abs and go deeper with goblet squats.

Coach wrote:

Dont do back squats the risks outweigh the gains.

Front squats, goblet squats, and reaching squats are excellent alternatives. warm up with reaching squats which really hits the abs and go deeper with goblet squats.

Instead of traditional back-squats and deadlifts, I use a hex-bar, also known as a trap-bar, and perform a hybrid squat-deadlift, but to me it seems much safer than a back-squat and doesn't scrape your shins or anything else the way a traditional deadlift might: