USADA's deposition of Dr. Brown just the latest saga in AlSal's long history of endocrine manipulation

fred wrote:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12467090

Zatopek, do you have a PhD in neurochemical endocrinology?

Fred, please tell us how this works.

My understanding of SSRI's is that it wouldn't affect someone who is generating enough of the compounds that make you feel good. Meanwhile, an international elite training schedule is more about "tired." That's my limited understanding.

As an aside, Salazar needs a psych eval.

pop_pop!_v2.2.1 wrote:

fred wrote:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12467090

Zatopek, do you have a PhD in neurochemical endocrinology?

Fred, please tell us how this works.

My understanding of SSRI's is that it wouldn't affect someone who is generating enough of the compounds that make you feel good. Meanwhile, an international elite training schedule is more about "tired." That's my limited understanding.

As an aside, Salazar needs a psych eval.

Salazar is a psychopath:

Boldness. Low fear including stress-tolerance, toleration of unfamiliarity and danger, and high self-confidence and social assertiveness.

Disinhibition. Poor impulse control including problems with planning and foresight, lacking affect and urge control, demand for immediate gratification, and poor behavioral restraints.

Meanness. Lacking empathy and close attachments with others, disdain of close attachments, use of cruelty to gain empowerment, exploitative tendencies, defiance of authority, and destructive excitement seeking.

crazy and sleazy wrote:

pop_pop!_v2.2.1 wrote:

Fred, please tell us how this works.

My understanding of SSRI's is that it wouldn't affect someone who is generating enough of the compounds that make you feel good. Meanwhile, an international elite training schedule is more about "tired." That's my limited understanding.

As an aside, Salazar needs a psych eval.

Salazar is a psychopath:

Boldness. Low fear including stress-tolerance, toleration of unfamiliarity and danger, and high self-confidence and social assertiveness.

Disinhibition. Poor impulse control including problems with planning and foresight, lacking affect and urge control, demand for immediate gratification, and poor behavioral restraints.

Meanness. Lacking empathy and close attachments with others, disdain of close attachments, use of cruelty to gain empowerment, exploitative tendencies, defiance of authority, and destructive excitement seeking.

crazy and sleazy wrote:

pop_pop!_v2.2.1 wrote:

As an aside, Salazar needs a psych eval.

Salazar is a psychopath:

Boldness. Low fear including stress-tolerance, toleration of unfamiliarity and danger, and high self-confidence and social assertiveness.

Disinhibition. Poor impulse control including problems with planning and foresight, lacking affect and urge control, demand for immediate gratification, and poor behavioral restraints.

Meanness. Lacking empathy and close attachments with others, disdain of close attachments, use of cruelty to gain empowerment, exploitative tendencies, defiance of authority, and destructive excitement seeking.

Sounds like an awesome human being

crazy and sleazy wrote:

crazy and sleazy wrote:

Salazar is a psychopath:

Boldness. Low fear including stress-tolerance, toleration of unfamiliarity and danger, and high self-confidence and social assertiveness.

Disinhibition. Poor impulse control including problems with planning and foresight, lacking affect and urge control, demand for immediate gratification, and poor behavioral restraints.

Meanness. Lacking empathy and close attachments with others, disdain of close attachments, use of cruelty to gain empowerment, exploitative tendencies, defiance of authority, and destructive excitement seeking.

http://captiongenerator.com/13377/Behind-the-Scenes-2014-USATF-Indoors

Absolutely FANTASTIC!

That video is a very good video biography of Alberto 'Androgel' Salazar.

It captures that hint of 'roid rage' which can appear at any picosecond time interval with Alberto.

The AlterG-Cryochamber-Crybaby-KYDuctTape-UnderwaterTreadmill-Genius-Psychopathic-Neuroendocrinologist-Scientist-Coach... of Galen Rupp.

Oh boy.

crazy and sleazy wrote:

pop_pop!_v2.2.1 wrote:

Fred, please tell us how this works.

My understanding of SSRI's is that it wouldn't affect someone who is generating enough of the compounds that make you feel good. Meanwhile, an international elite training schedule is more about "tired." That's my limited understanding.

As an aside, Salazar needs a psych eval.

Salazar is a psychopath:

Boldness. Low fear including stress-tolerance, toleration of unfamiliarity and danger, and high self-confidence and social assertiveness.

Disinhibition. Poor impulse control including problems with planning and foresight, lacking affect and urge control, demand for immediate gratification, and poor behavioral restraints.

Meanness. Lacking empathy and close attachments with others, disdain of close attachments, use of cruelty to gain empowerment, exploitative tendencies, defiance of authority, and destructive excitement seeking.

Did you ever meet the guy, hang around with the guy or observe him close up.

All you have done is pin a label on him, and then quote from a description of that label.

come clean? what do you mean? we have an int'l coach caught redhanded with 62 used syringes and preloaded epo syringes, and it doesn't seem that anything will be done. this thyroid stuff is small potatoes. give me a break.

Now, Zatopek may have trained with Salazar, known guys that trained with him, or known guys that used peds. He may have inside information on what was being used and by whom.

But, he cannot say that taking a serotonin reuptake inhibitor to alleviate mental and physical symptoms of the neuronal and hormonal cascade downside of heavy, intense training and racing, doesn't work.

He would have to show why, on a molecular level, quoting studies.

"I had an interesting encounter with a student this past semester. She was doing her speech on PEDs (vs them) but in the course of our conversation she said she had been taking meladron (I think that's what it is - the stuff Sherapova got busted for). After telling me she is no longer taking it since it is now illegal - she tells me how it helped her breathing etc.

I'm standing there thinking she doesn't understand that she was on a PED..."

She wasn't on a PED until it was defined as being a PED.

Guardian:

Meldonium

"• It is manufactured in Latvia and only distributed in Baltic countries and Russia. It is not approved by the Food and Drug Administration for use in the United States and is not authorised in the rest of Europe.

• It increases blood flow, which improves exercise capacity in athletes.

• Wada found “evidence of its use by athletes with the intention of enhancing performance” by virtue of carrying more oxygen to muscle tissue.

• The decision to add meldonium to the banned list was approved on 16 September 2015, and it came into effect on 1 January 2016. Wada had spent the previous year monitoring the drug before adding it to the banned list."

pop_pop!_v2.2.1 wrote:

fred wrote:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12467090

Zatopek, do you have a PhD in neurochemical endocrinology?

Fred, please tell us how this works.

My understanding of SSRI's is that it wouldn't affect someone who is generating enough of the compounds that make you feel good. Meanwhile, an international elite training schedule is more about "tired." That's my limited understanding.

As an aside, Salazar needs a psych eval.

Drug forums - Kyle

"What controls 5-HT2A regulation in the cortex may be more related to stress hormones and estrogen levels than other means. It has been proven that when an individual is under stress, cortisol is released from the adrenal cortex, binds to glucocorticoid receptors and in results in up-regulation of 5-HT2A in the cortex and down-regulation of 5-HT1A in the hippocampus, and also up-regulation of oxytocin receptors (estrogen is also known to have similar results, which is why many females are more sensitive to MDMA than men). This may explain why people with PTSD are so sensitive to MDMA's rewarding effects. Stress levels must be significant over long periods of time in order to produce significant up-regulation, so one stressful day won't be enough. "

fred wrote:

Now, Zatopek may have trained with Salazar, known guys that trained with him, or known guys that used peds. He may have inside information on what was being used and by whom.

But, he cannot say that taking a serotonin reuptake inhibitor to alleviate mental and physical symptoms of the neuronal and hormonal cascade downside of heavy, intense training and racing, doesn't work.

He would have to show why, on a molecular level, quoting studies.

Take a look at the Drugged to the Gills thread on tracktalk.net that I linked earlier in this thread for an explanation about my background on this subject. I won't repeat myself here. That was the point to point of that thread, to be a repository for all such information. Same user name, and my posts start about at about the 8th post or so on that thread. I'll save you the time and link it again here:

First, we're not talking about SSRIs, which you've latched on to in what appears to be an attempt to deflect attention away from what we ARE talking about, which is phony diagnoses of hypothyroidism which are then treated with levothyroxine (and who knows what else), not SSRIs. Note the title of the thread for starters, and actually read the entire original post, not just skim the first linked article and stop after the mention of SSRIs, specifically Prozac.

USADA doesn't want to depose Dr. Brown about SSRIs. They could care less about SSRIs and that isn't even anything being discussed or investigated relating to Salazar. They want to depose him about levothyroxine and whatever else he's doing. AlSal's infatuation with endocrine manipulation might have started with SSRIs but that isn't where it stayed and he quickly moved on.

And of course, Dr. Brown has absolutely nothing to hide, which is why he's refused to talk to USADA about his "treatment" of "hypothyroidism" despite being given HIPAA releases from numerous athletes he's "treated" allowing him to do so. If USADA is successful in getting to depose Dr. Brown, I won't be a bit surprised if he attempts to invoke his 5th Amendment privilege and not answer anything. Because, ya know, there's nothing to see here.

You're losing the forest for the trees, which is very easy to do on this subject.

Allow me to restate what you're postulating to demonstrate what I mean as follows:

There is a completely legal, highly effective method of "treating" the mental and physical fatigue that comes from doing the training necessary to compete at the world-class level. Despite this completely legal, highly effective method of "treating" this fatigue being known about for a couple of decades:

--there is still essentially only one doctor in the country who subscribes to this treatment.

--that same doctor is a paid consultant for a shoe company, a shoe company with it's own in house medical lab, because, as we all know, shoe companies need endocrinologists as consultants to go with their in-house medical labs.

--despite this great, widely known "treatment" for this "fatigue", curiously the only athletes known to be "suffering" from this "fatigue" who require the "treatment" by this doctor all have the same coach who works for the same shoe company with its own in-house medical lab and for which this endocrinologist is a "consultant."

So what you want us to believe is that all the other world class athletes all around the world, athletes who are constantly seeking any possible edge they can get in competition (for many, including experimenting with a host of different PEDs), either don't "suffer" from this "fatigue" from training, or they're just too stupid and uninformed to know that there is this great, completely legal "treatment" that only this one doctor seems to know anything about.

Or...here's a crazy thought...maybe, just maybe there might be little more to Dr. Brown's "treatment" than meets the eye.

In the immortal words of Judge Judy, don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining.

Nope, your point started with Prozac, a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor, and tried to link that with Al Sal and Brown prescribing thyroid. I'm not trying to deflect away from anything. You brought it up.

"So what you want us to believe is that all the other world class athletes all around the world, athletes who are constantly seeking any possible edge they can get in competition (for many, including experimenting with a host of different PEDs), either don't "suffer" from this "fatigue" from training, or they're just too stupid and uninformed to know that there is this great, completely legal "treatment" that only this one doctor seems to know anything about."

Strawman. I don't want you to believe anything. I don't care.

If you post something based on your suppositions, it may need to be deconstructed because it is fantasy or fiction.

"Or...here's a crazy thought...maybe, just maybe there might be little more to Dr. Brown's "treatment" than meets the eye."

No kidding. But you haven't stated exactly what it is. You're just beating around the bush.

And I read your other thread a year ago.

Alberto Salazar and his battles at U of Oregon with Jeff Nelson. http://articles.latimes.com/1990-08-11/sports/sp-308_1_state-titleThe above is a three-page article. A few quotes:"Nelson soon discovered the camaraderie that had existed among his teammates at Burbank was nowhere to be found at Oregon.""Nelson had a major altercation with Salazar because he--a freshman--had the audacity to outkick the senior at the end of a workout.""That just wasn't done up there," Kemp chuckled. "The freshmen were supposed to be cannon fodder for the stars up there, and that went against everything Jeff knew. He felt that you always gave your best.""You weren't expected to get injured up there, and if you did, you were expected to run through it," Nelson said. "Their attitude was, 'If it hurts, just take more aspirin.' "Eventually, Nelson had to stop running for several weeks. Although the injury developed into a stress fracture, Oregon Coach Bill Dellinger still expected him to run in the Pacific 10 championships in May."That was kind of the final straw," Nelson said. "I told them that I was in no condition to race--I was barely starting to run again--but their attitude was, 'Look, you're on a full ride here, and we're going to get our money's worth out of you. . . .'

fred wrote:

All you have done is pin a label on him, and then quote from a description of that label.

fred wrote:

Did you ever meet the guy, hang around with the guy or observe him close up.

All you have done is pin a label on him, and then quote from a description of that label.

Salazar himself has admitted publicly (in his book) that he's not treated people well at all. People who know him report he can e very volatile and has little empathy towards others.

Do you see anything in the article where Al was mean to a talented rookie.

fred wrote:

No kidding. But you haven't stated exactly what it is. You're just beating around the bush.

That's because there really isn't any way to know at this point. Take BALCO for an example. There was no way to know about that specific substance because nobody knew it existed. It was created for only one purpose, to evade drug tests. It wasn't until Trevor Graham mailed off the syringe with a trace amount left in it that they knew what to look for. The only thing that can be known for sure is that something stinks to the high heavens about Salazar and Brown and it always has.

But I do have a hypothesis, theory, speculation, hunch, curiosity, whatever you want to call it, that makes all the pieces fit together: Brown designs untestable substances like BALCO did and supplies the recipe to Nike. Everybody focuses on Nike's lab for test purposes, but what if it had a manufacturing purpose as well? Nike's medical lab isn't available to the public. It's a private, in-house lab where they control all aspects of it. It would make a lot of sense to take Brown's recipe and manufacture the actual substances at Nike's in-house lab where they can control everything outside the normal channels of medical certification and monitoring.

If Salazar is willing to test Androgel on his own sons and has this infatuation with endocrine manipulation, having his own private chemistry set in the form of the lab and an unscrupulous Dr. Jekyll to formulate his potions would be a dream come true.

Conspiracy theory, sure, maybe, but it makes all the pieces fit: It would be a huge reason for Nike to have their own lab, it would explain why they have no fear of testing positive, it would explain why Brown is seemingly the only doc with this "wonder treatment" (when in fact it's nothing more than a cover story for what he's really doing) and it would explain why Brown is so reluctant to cooperate with USADA despite being given the releases to do so.