Brexit?

Hey, TAA!

Fat drunk and stupid wrote:

Craziest part of EU membership is if you relocate to another EU country you are entitled to all the benefits provided by that country. Deadbeats can show up on the British doorstep and immediately receive free housing and social benefits. I'd resent my tax money going to pay for young foreigners who want to"retire" in the UK at my expense while refusing to adopt the British culture. Send'em packing I says.

That's not true at all.

Nobody who moves to the UK without a job is entitled to claim benefits right away.

If they have a job and are pay NI over a certain threshold, then you can apply for certain benefits right away, but in that case you've got a job and you're contributing so it's fine.

trollism wrote:

Fat drunk and stupid wrote:

Craziest part of EU membership is if you relocate to another EU country you are entitled to all the benefits provided by that country. Deadbeats can show up on the British doorstep and immediately receive free housing and social benefits. I'd resent my tax money going to pay for young foreigners who want to"retire" in the UK at my expense while refusing to adopt the British culture. Send'em packing I says.

That's not true at all.

Nobody who moves to the UK without a job is entitled to claim benefits right away.

If they have a job and are pay NI over a certain threshold, then you can apply for certain benefits right away, but in that case you've got a job and you're contributing so it's fine.

I worked in the UK for a while on a visitor's permit and got sick with some nasty virus or something, so I went to the doctor not knowing how to pay for it. Well they asked for my address and then signed me right up for your national health care even though I told them I wasn't a UK citizen. I saw the doc, got my pills, and off I went without paying a dime in fees or taxes. I still have my health care card somewhere. So I can confirm that the UK gate keepers aren't on the job when it comes to keeping free loaders from feeding out of the public trough.

Oh, and thanks for your generosity! I'm sure you don't hear that much from the free loader crowd.

Sorry for that. You're right. They would be forced to live on the streets and to pay for their own damn appendectomies.

The NHS isn't benefits as such. If you were working here did you pay UK tax? Also are you a European citizen or an American?

I didn't pay UK taxes because I was being paid by my company in America. I told them I was an American citizen in the UK on a visitor's visa and I offered to pay the bill, but they didn't care because I'm sure that doctor's office got paid by the number of people they registered. If I remember right, all they wanted to know was if I was working and living in the UK. This was around 1991, so things might have changed since then, but we all know they haven't.

Immigration is a part of it. The root of the discontent is that the British (like a growing number of Americans) feel duped by economists and politicians who have trumpeted free trade and labour movement as a way to 'lift all boats'. It turned out that business had a field day outsourcing and bringing in cheap labor. Ordinary people had the double whammy of losing their jobs and culture. Everything has been sacrificed the altar of the GDP numbers. That fits much better for the US, but not the UK, who are generally quieter, more reserved and 'uncomfortable with enthusiasm'. Leavers would rather have less income, but more of the culture and charm of their country. Diversity is bunk if you already have a cosy place to be.

Polls indicate that a majority who voted for the EEC in 1975 now regret their decision. Call 'em old farts, but they were there from start to finish and have seen what the absurdities of the EU have done. True, idiot British planners made lots of mistakes 1945-75, but the EEC made it worse

I grew up in England but have been Stateside 30 years, and am fascinated to watch vested interests duke it out. I personally think Britain has gone too far to leave now. Might as well stick it out. My grandparents England, that the Brexiteers long for, has gone forever.

DiscoGary wrote:

I didn't pay UK taxes because I was being paid by my company in America. I told them I was an American citizen in the UK on a visitor's visa and I offered to pay the bill, but they didn't care because I'm sure that doctor's office got paid by the number of people they registered. If I remember right, all they wanted to know was if I was working and living in the UK. This was around 1991, so things might have changed since then, but we all know they haven't.

You're acting like this a bad thing.

trollism wrote:

DiscoGary wrote:

I didn't pay UK taxes because I was being paid by my company in America. I told them I was an American citizen in the UK on a visitor's visa and I offered to pay the bill, but they didn't care because I'm sure that doctor's office got paid by the number of people they registered. If I remember right, all they wanted to know was if I was working and living in the UK. This was around 1991, so things might have changed since then, but we all know they haven't.

You're acting like this a bad thing.

It is. People who don't put into the system should not be able to get something out. That's a moral hazard. England survived the few quid I stole from them, but if hordes of immigrants are allowed to get something for nothing, then it won't be sustainable in the long run.

~"I find it obvious that you can't have open borders with a generous welfare state." -- Milton Friedman

DiscoGary wrote:

trollism wrote:

You're acting like this a bad thing.

It is. People who don't put into the system should not be able to get something out. That's a moral hazard. England survived the few quid I stole from them, but if hordes of immigrants are allowed to get something for nothing, then it won't be sustainable in the long run.

~"I find it obvious that you can't have open borders with a generous welfare state." -- Milton Friedman

That has been a controversial topic in recent times, but the fact is, foreigners going to the doctor takes up an absolutely miniscule proportion of the NHS budget, hardly even worth the admin cost it would take to charge for it.

UK citizens, as EU citizens, are also entitled to free healthcare anywhere within the EU. Which is an issue in itself as there are about 1,000,000 mainly elderly British expats in Spain, who would be quite costly to care for should they be forced back to the UK in the event of Brexit.

And, as has been said, the NHS isn't really considered to be "benefits" in the way that things like tax credits or unemployment are. You would have to have a National Insurance (Social Security) number to claim any of those.

Also as far as I am aware, work permits have been tightened up quiet significantly since the beginning of the 1990s, but then again, immigration from outside the EU is managed completely separately to immigration from within the EU.

DiscoGary wrote:

trollism wrote:

You're acting like this a bad thing.

It is. People who don't put into the system should not be able to get something out. That's a moral hazard. England survived the few quid I stole from them, but if hordes of immigrants are allowed to get something for nothing, then it won't be sustainable in the long run.

~"I find it obvious that you can't have open borders with a generous welfare state." -- Milton Friedman

I follow your point, and even agree.

Please explain how leaving Europe will stop this? You are a citizen from America and accessed free healthcare. How did the EU enable you to do this?

Metric Miler wrote:

DiscoGary wrote:

It is. People who don't put into the system should not be able to get something out. That's a moral hazard. England survived the few quid I stole from them, but if hordes of immigrants are allowed to get something for nothing, then it won't be sustainable in the long run.

~"I find it obvious that you can't have open borders with a generous welfare state." -- Milton Friedman

I follow your point, and even agree.

Please explain how leaving Europe will stop this? You are a citizen from America and accessed free healthcare. How did the EU enable you to do this?

I suppose the UK would have better control over both immigration and the kinds of benefits that immigrants get if they didn't have to play by the EU rules. I wasn't blaming the EU in my case especially since England wasn't really part of it back then if I remember correctly. I was just pointing out that social benefits tend to be granted to anyone who gets into the country regardless of the rules. Same here in the US.

The Neo-Liberal globalization movement is being met with more and more opposition. I have a lot of European friends that are have been predicting the current events, for many years. Many simply cannot stand the direction that their continent is heading... sound familiar?

The same things are happening right now in the US. The Neo-Liberal policies such as TPP, are starting to meet opposition... but, the ironic part, is that many US liberals simply do not understand who is pushing for these types of agreements, or the point of them. It is their own party policy makers that are completely behind it.

When the political left finally wakes up and smells the coffee, they will no longer support the Obama's and Clinton's of their 'party'. Bernie is not a bad start, but Bernie isn't necessarily that sharp, either.............. and he will sell out to his party, very soon.

DiscoGary wrote:

Metric Miler wrote:

I follow your point, and even agree.

Please explain how leaving Europe will stop this? You are a citizen from America and accessed free healthcare. How did the EU enable you to do this?

I suppose the UK would have better control over both immigration and the kinds of benefits that immigrants get if they didn't have to play by the EU rules. I wasn't blaming the EU in my case especially since England wasn't really part of it back then if I remember correctly. I was just pointing out that social benefits tend to be granted to anyone who gets into the country regardless of the rules. Same here in the US.

No, they wouldn't. The UK makes it's own immigration and benefits/healthcare rules regarding non-EU citizens.

These are the rules, if you managed to get around them then either they weren't in place at the time or the doctor you saw was dodgy.

You realise Trump is extremely neoliberal, right?

Bit unsure what you are getting at here.

This is sure to ease tensions. British MP, Jo Cox, shot and stabbed by a man who was heard yelling "Britain First".

Jo Cox is dead per a Yahoo alert on my phone. Dark times....

I don't know what the voting and tallying schedule is, but Betfair Exchange right now is reflecting a probability of close to 2-to-1 in favor of remaining in the EU, with the over/under at about 52.5% in favor of staying.

I'm really not familiar with the issues, but I'm inclined (as a U.S. citizen, resident, and investor with international financial holdings) to root for the status quo, if only because the financial markets seem to prefer it here and some of the Brexit advocates sound too much like Trump supporters.

You can call Trump whatever you want. I will admit, I'm often very baffled by the guy, but he is a business person, and he has a very distinct talent to talk out of both sides of his mouth. Is that a good or a bad thing? Probably both... depends on the situation.

I just don't see Trump as being some kind of bomb-freak... again, it's bad for business, and after all, he is a business guy. This is in opposition to our sociopathic politicians. They are about power through coercion and force, and as Trump has stated many times, he is about "making a deal". I take him at his word on this. The biggest player on the planet, is Putin, and this is a fact. Trump is/will be much more respected, and stands a much greater chance of keeping the world from diving into WW3.

The point of my post is in response to the title of the thread... "Brexit". There is growing opposition to the neo-liberal driven 'globalization', and the EU is a very large arm in the globalization movement. The Brits are seeing the light, as has many in Europe for almost 20 years now. It is very interesting that most of the opposition to globalization in the early 2000's, was voiced by many that would call themselves 'liberal'. But yet, today, the biggest legislative pieces are being completely backed by the liberals.

Ironically enough, Trump has loudly stated his opposition to globalization... and again, it flew right over the liberals head.