I burnt my hokas: here's why...

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Bafin wrote:

Ken,

What shoe are you using? To the OP what was the "old shoe" you went back to? I have been going through Runners knee and I'm finding that maybe the firmer shoes are better because they hold the form. I was experiencing the knee pain with Peg 31s my current lineup: Pearl Izumi M2, Brooks Launch2. The Pearl is supposed to have a post but I can't even feel it(or see it) The launch seems to firm up past 75 miles. I was in the LRS and tried on the new Wave Catalyst its a 10mm drop but felt low like the Pearl. I then tried on a Vomero and Boost. The vomero felt like it might work as its flexible but the Boost was just too insulated from the ground.

Bafin, I alternate between the Saucony Kilkenny xc 4 (no longer available, 5 is too narrow) and the Nike Zoom Streak LT 2 (also discontinued). I've moved into the Streak LT 3 and the jury is still out on them. I'll be looking for something else as well (if the LT 3's happen to work) as I like to alternate wear.

I've been a flats guy for a while but dating back to high school when I wasn't ever injured (probably true of a lot of us), the shoes that worked best for me were neutral and, as you say, firm. Of all my issues, knees have never been a problem (knock wood).

For your sake, something like the Nike Zoom Elite might be a good shoe to give a try.

I have the claytons which have a shorter stack height.. And a firmer forefoot. I love them they are light. Keep me on the front of my foot and turnover is really efficient and fast. Love love

Love my Cliftons and I haven't had any issues with them. Probably because I used to run in minimalist shoes and do barefoot strides on grass almost every day and there's nothing wrong with my stride that would cause me issues with overly cushioned shoes. I'm just slow.

Did you really torch them? If so, how did it go? Did all that rubber really burn? What did it smell like?

I would never wear Nike , for ethical and religious reasons.

That is to bad to hear that it is causing knee pain problems; the primary cause for this in some individuals is the one inch high foam cushioned midsole is very soft and gives slightly when one runs and compresses this foam cushioned midsole; this secondarily has the potential to cause a knee instability problem if one does not have sufficiently strong hip flexor muscles to be able to hold ones knee joints firmly in place during the stresses of running during trail running over varied undulating terrain for example; though with time and conditioning sessions at the gym working with a personal fitness conditioning trainer who could show one how to do the specific necessary physical conditioning exercises to strengthen ones specific hip flexor muscles; then one should not have a potential problem in utilizing the hoka one one heavily cushioned midsole trail running shoes for trail running; work with ones physical fitness trainer to assess ones hip flexor muscless strength and condition initially and work with them to come up with a plan to strengthen them over time and one should be ok ones ones hip flexor muscles have been sufficiently strengthend and reinforced over time to be able to properly support and stably hold ones knees in place over time; also one could alway practice power walking with the hoka one one shoes also as well to help strengthen ones hip flexor muscles while one is also conducting the actual hip flexor muscle conditioning and strengthening regimen exercises specified when working out with ones personal physical fitness trainer.

profdleeucc wrote:

... one inch high foam ... when one runs ...one does not have ... ones knee joints ... could show one ... to strengthen ones specific hip flexor muscles; then one should not have a potential problem in utilizing the hoka one one ... ones physical fitness trainer to assess ones hip... ok ones ones hip ... hold ones knees... also one could ... hoka one one shoes also as well to help strengthen ones hip flexor muscles while one ... ones personal physical fitness trainer.

One might check one thread's one date.

hoka one one one one one one one one one wrote:

profdleeucc wrote:

... one inch high foam ... when one runs ...one does not have ... ones knee joints ... could show one ... to strengthen ones specific hip flexor muscles; then one should not have a potential problem in utilizing the hoka one one ... ones physical fitness trainer to assess ones hip... ok ones ones hip ... hold ones knees... also one could ... hoka one one shoes also as well to help strengthen ones hip flexor muscles while one ... ones personal physical fitness trainer.

One might check one thread's one date.

One might understand that these pillows are not the answer but like self and over-medded answer to the unstable, un athletic. One might understand that the Hoka is a type of confusion to your brain...sorta like being drunk on the cushioning of your shoe; you make horrible movement decisions when in over cushioned running shoes..stop it..!

The main problem with a lot of these types of myriad varieties of gel and/or highly cushioned styles of shoes which have become highly coveted and desired for their very typically comfort cushioning characteristics; is that they indirectly cause a joint instability especially when one is running in rugged trail running conditions which is fine if one is a highly physically fit conditioned and trained athlete; but for many weekend warriors who are not quite so physically fit conditioned and trained athlete; one can get into an incredible amount of trouble potentially quite easily;

typically what happens is that one winds up applying very high amount of stresses to ones knees which over time may cause a vertical and/or horizontal miniscus of knee tear which is very painful indeed and that may be serious enough to cause one to even lose their ability to walk normally; so yes one needs to be exceptionally careful and certainly not careless about considering one actual muscle conditioning and fitness especially in consideration of ones all so critical hip flexor muscle actual conditioning and hip flexor muscle strength;

one can actually assess and evaluate ones hip muscle conditioning and strength by actually placing oneself in a typical side plank position(youtube video) and to be able to scissor ones leg upwards and spread outwards while being able to hold that position stably while maintaining the side plank position for about fifteen to twenty seconds; now if one is not able to actually do that one can always look at youtube video on how to specifically strengthen ones hip flexor muscles over time; but their are enough individuals who are not in good enough shape hip flexor muscle wise;

that one could easily potentially get oneself in some considerable trouble by damaging their knees when running and/or even walking when ones knees are not properly muscle strength supported by having sufficiently conditioned and strengthened hip flexor muscles; which is entirely and largely preventable;

now some have even lost their normal ability to walk normally without pain as a result; which is a rather sad and an typically quite important cautionary story to tell those who might be potentially misinformed and/or misguided in terms of having the correct information at hand and having the actual knowledge/ know how to be able to properly utilize the relatively new heavily cushioned gel and/or foam cushioned typical trail running shoes;

now some of the relatively new heavily cushioned gel and/or foam cushioned athletic shoes on the market even have air pockets to add even more cushioning capabilities which is truly great for comfort; but they can also potentially offer still more opportunities and/or possibilities to potentially destabilize ones knees and/or cause a potential horizontal and/or vertical meniscus tear of the knee; which could potentially lead one to be potentially injured to the point that one might not be able to normally walk without pain permanently for life unfortunately; just be careful out their guys as its far to easy to potentially injure oneself in just that kind of way.

In my book, I wrote this about shoes.

...feet are like snowflakes. No two are alike. Some runners have narrow feet; others have wide feet. Some runners have very high arches; some have normal arches, and some have flat feet. .... Here’s a secret most runners don’t know. Running shoes are not made to fit you. Instead, shoes are made to fit the most runners possible within their particular niche. From a business perspective, that makes sense. Manufacturers want their shoes to fit many runners as possible within that shoe’s target market. ... A better solution is to correct any form flaws and wear a lighter, neutral shoe, adding just enough extra arch support for your unique foot. You’ll learn how to improve your form and add arch support to shoes in an upcoming chapter.

The bottom line is that you need to find shoes that work for your feet and your running form. A middle-aged overweight recreational runner who does the marathon shuffle isn't going to do well in the same shoe worn by a skinny, sub-elite twentysomething with good form.

I would add that there is a big difference in Hokas from one model to another. I liked the Napali, Napali ATR, and Mach. I didn't like the Cavu. I run the 400 and 800 in the Hoka Rocket MD.

I’m guessing English might not your first language. Either way, I would suggest that you read “Elements of Style” by Strunk.

McFifty wrote:

56 years old - Hokas have rejuvenated my running. Hip and toe issues all but resolved due to the increased cushioning combined with light weight.

I'm able to run 55-60mpw with 2 track sessions and 1 hill session with 1 day off.

I have 4 pair of Cliftons that I rotate.

My son and his running buddies call them "old man" shoes. They're definitely not for everybody, but this old man is pleased with them.

I'm 56. May I please ask, which Cliftons, as in the latest ones or older ones. Thank you fellow 56 year old:)

I seem to be having similar experience as the OP and just started wondering if it was related to my Hoka's.

I embraced Hoka's about 4 years ago because of a neuroma in my foot (which 3 surgeries couldn't address) and also serious back stiffness after runs. It was a huge bump for me, after 40 years of running I was able to start running more and my foot and back issues mostly went away. It took some adjusting to running on so much cushioning but I certainly saw the benefit. The rocker base didn't agitate my neuroma and prevented the unbearable hot foot I was getting. It was a god sent.

However in the past year I have a lot of aches in both knees (under the knee caps) with more pain in my right knee. I've attributed this to my years of running and aging, slowing down, weight, basically the wheels falling off. But I had recently been wondering if the shoes might have contributed to this. I use Cliftons ATR mostly and Bondi less so. The challenge, as other posters pointed out, is to figure out if this is the issue or other factors. decades of running is hard on the body, I have poor flexibility and my hips are chronically tight (I'm not sure I understand why the hip flexors put pressure on the knees as stated by another poster). It didn't come on sudden either, but is clearly a big issue now.

So to quote Spike Lee "Is it the shoes?"

I've run in the Arahis for close to 2 years and I haven't felt they have done anything for me. My knees still ache during every run. I am pretty sure I have OA. I am ready to go back to a more traditional shoe.

Hoka Cliftons hurt my knees the day after first wearing them. I have a longer stride, no knee pain. Wore them once a week for two months on easier days. Pain gradually subsided in they day after running. I still wear them a few times a month. I figure the change in motion they are creating is helping strengthen my knees. I wear zoom flys sparingly to work my calfs for this reason. Not a smart move to introduce a new shoe and wear it every day.

Hoka twotwo wrote:

Not a smart move to introduce a new shoe and wear it every day.

The OP most likely went from 20-30 mpw, bought a pair of Hoka shoes, and then proceeded to run high mileage, giving himself a nice case of knee tendonitis. Then, with time off, things began to heal and he could run again. Had nothing to do with the Hoka shoes except that he wrongfully thought they would let him get away with training like an idiot.

hoka one one one one one one one one one wrote:

profdleeucc wrote:

... one inch high foam ... when one runs ...one does not have ... ones knee joints ... could show one ... to strengthen ones specific hip flexor muscles; then one should not have a potential problem in utilizing the hoka one one ... ones physical fitness trainer to assess ones hip... ok ones ones hip ... hold ones knees... also one could ... hoka one one shoes also as well to help strengthen ones hip flexor muscles while one ... ones personal physical fitness trainer.

One might check one thread's one date.

You tell 'em, Juan!

56too wrote:

McFifty wrote:

56 years old - Hokas have rejuvenated my running. Hip and toe issues all but resolved due to the increased cushioning combined with light weight.

I'm able to run 55-60mpw with 2 track sessions and 1 hill session with 1 day off.

I have 4 pair of Cliftons that I rotate.

My son and his running buddies call them "old man" shoes. They're definitely not for everybody, but this old man is pleased with them.

I'm 56. May I please ask, which Cliftons, as in the latest ones or older ones. Thank you fellow 56 year old:)

They were the Tony Cliftons