The Syracuse men's team just took the national championship. Syracuse suburb high school teams have been winning consecutive national championships for years.
Is this just coincidence or are Syracuse area runners made from tougher stock? Does the climate make even the transfers to the area tougher.
What are the odds an area in the United States could be so extremely talented at such different levels?
Maybe Bill Aris is consulting with the SU University and it has nothing to do with the climate.
I go another high school in the Syracuse area, and i wish I had an answer for you. As far as I know there isn't anywhere special they train or anything (my team trains at the same park), but if there is, they should let me in on it!
Cues has got to be one of the worst places to live in the United States.
Great South wrote:
Cues has got to be one of the worst places to live in the United States.
I use to live about an hour north of Syracuse. The winter training is the worst I have ever experienced. Frigid and snowy.
It's also surprising that Wisconsin and Minnesota do well given their winters. Perhaps the hardness of the winters forces runners to do base training. When I lived in MN, we ran all winter and there was one guy who wouldn't where a t-shirt until it was 32 degrees.
Perhaps wrote:
It's also surprising that Wisconsin and Minnesota do well given their winters. Perhaps the hardness of the winters forces runners to do base training. When I lived in MN, we ran all winter and there was one guy who wouldn't where a t-shirt until it was 32 degrees.
I think the change of seasons is very good for runners. In the colder weather, your body is able to train faster (its not encumbered by heat induced diminished performance). During the warmer seasons your body learns to perform and acclimates to warm temperatures. Heat dissipation improves.
In CNY the hilly terrain may be an additional positive factor.
science guy3 wrote:
Perhaps wrote:It's also surprising that Wisconsin and Minnesota do well given their winters. Perhaps the hardness of the winters forces runners to do base training. When I lived in MN, we ran all winter and there was one guy who wouldn't where a t-shirt until it was 32 degrees.
I think the change of seasons is very good for runners. In the colder weather, your body is able to train faster (its not encumbered by heat induced diminished performance). During the warmer seasons your body learns to perform and acclimates to warm temperatures. Heat dissipation improves.
In CNY the hilly terrain may be an additional positive factor.
That is totally idiotic. Performance is hindered in cold temperatures. Ideal distance temps are no lower than about 38 degrees at the absolute coldest. We are talking about subzero temperatures in the winter here, not a cool day in Seattle.
I"ve said it before and I'll say it again: Its (a) the hills and (b) the forced rest in the offseason.
dsfasfasdfds wrote:
science guy3 wrote:I think the change of seasons is very good for runners. In the colder weather, your body is able to train faster (its not encumbered by heat induced diminished performance). During the warmer seasons your body learns to perform and acclimates to warm temperatures. Heat dissipation improves.
In CNY the hilly terrain may be an additional positive factor.
That is totally idiotic. Performance is hindered in cold temperatures. Ideal distance temps are no lower than about 38 degrees at the absolute coldest. We are talking about subzero temperatures in the winter here, not a cool day in Seattle.
This is what the research says:
"When French researchers analyzed the finishing times of 1.8 million marathoners over a 10-year period, they found that a race-day temp of 43.2°F produced the quickest times overall. But faster runners, who generate more heat, benefited from cooler temps, with the top one percent (green line below) peaking at 38.9°F. Midpackers (red line) do best in the mid-40s.
The reason seems simple: all else (e.g. body size) being equal, metabolic heat production is proportional to VO2, and VO2 is proportional to running speed. A marathoner running 2:05 is consuming more than twice as much oxygen as a 4:00 marathoner, and thus generating more than twice as much heat -- so of course you'd expect the faster runner to prefer a cooler day."
Syracuse has a greater proportion of its days closer to the range than many other areas of the country. Yes the winter temperatures months are colder than that but you have to look at temperatures for the whole year.
Coming from that area, the cold isn't the worst part of winter training. It's the snow and ice on the roads which often doesn't get cleared for quite a while. Hard to do a tempo run when you can barely keep yourself upright.
Then add in the fact that if its 0 out you're probably very bundled up, which can also slow you down a bit...not a great combination. I'd say SU does well in spite of their weather, not because of it.
science guy3 wrote:
dsfasfasdfds wrote:That is totally idiotic. Performance is hindered in cold temperatures. Ideal distance temps are no lower than about 38 degrees at the absolute coldest. We are talking about subzero temperatures in the winter here, not a cool day in Seattle.
This is what the research says:
"When French researchers analyzed the finishing times of 1.8 million marathoners over a 10-year period, they found that a race-day temp of 43.2°F produced the quickest times overall. But faster runners, who generate more heat, benefited from cooler temps, with the top one percent (green line below) peaking at 38.9°F. Midpackers (red line) do best in the mid-40s.
The reason seems simple: all else (e.g. body size) being equal, metabolic heat production is proportional to VO2, and VO2 is proportional to running speed. A marathoner running 2:05 is consuming more than twice as much oxygen as a 4:00 marathoner, and thus generating more than twice as much heat -- so of course you'd expect the faster runner to prefer a cooler day."
Syracuse has a greater proportion of its days closer to the range than many other areas of the country. Yes the winter temperatures months are colder than that but you have to look at temperatures for the whole year.
this is not being applied correctly
Its relatively as easy to train when its 38 as when its 65. No runner is going to complain 65 is too hot for ideal training. But its a hell of a lot harder to train in 11 than 38, esp if there is snow on the road, or blizzard conditions.
Your body runs faster at 38 versus 65. Your body is trained at higher speeds.
standards of excellence. if you want to compete with fm (and saratoga) you've got to be pretty darn good. look at what liverpool did this year. think it's schools saying "why not us?" and being inspired and motivated by the success of those two programs.
as far as how it started, my opinion is aris is just an excellent, excellent coach.
Man Overboard wrote:
I"ve said it before and I'll say it again: Its (a) the hills and (b) the forced rest in the offseason.
There is no off-season.
I live in Buffalo and I find that my tempos and base running tend to go well during deep winter. Time becomes meaningless so I have to go by effort. I didn't realize until I typed that just now, but that sounds a lot like what Colorado deal with given the combination of altitude and big climbs; you don't get to roast your tempos, you have to go by feel and learn your body and get aerobically strong. I can run some faster intervals on a treadmill if I really need to, but mostly winter is a base season anyway, and you don't need much to stay in touch with your speed. I think that is kind of a blessing in disguise.
Old man and the sea wrote:
The Syracuse men's team just took the national championship. Syracuse suburb high school teams have been winning consecutive national championships for years.
Is this just coincidence or are Syracuse area runners made from tougher stock? Does the climate make even the transfers to the area tougher.
What are the odds an area in the United States could be so extremely talented at such different levels?
What about the previous 60 or so years when Syracuse didn't even qualify for nationals? Why wasn't the climate making them tougher back then?
But I just realized why Arkansas dominated the 80s/90s before falling off the map. No reasonable person can distub that global warming is why they aren't winnign anymore.
Old man and the sea wrote:
The Syracuse men's team just took the national championship. Syracuse suburb high school teams have been winning consecutive national championships for years.
Is this just coincidence or are Syracuse area runners made from tougher stock? Does the climate make even the transfers to the area tougher.
What are the odds an area in the United States could be so extremely talented at such different levels?
Yes, it is a coincidence. 15 years ago Fayetteville-Manlius HS could have beaten SU. It's a matter of having outstanding coaches at FM and perhaps a few other area high schools, and SU. Other nearby colleges like Cornell have their ups and downs.
Thanks for the flattering question, though!
themanontherun wrote:
I live in Buffalo and I find that my tempos and base running tend to go well during deep winter.
Wow. I bet there are lots of folks like you, but I'm not one. My body loves warm weather, hates cold.
I live just south of the Rochester area, and I don't even run outside when it's less than 50 degrees out. I literally never warm up. I spend the cold season entirely on the treadmill. All my PR's were set in temperatures over 75 degress...except for half-marathon PR, which was set in high 60's. Am I the only one whose body is geared toward warmer weather?
Earlier someone posted that high 30's and low 40's are ideal for elite marathoners running the marathon. But many phenomena in nature have a spectrum, and not everybody's body's the same. ...and considering that the some heat works best for me, does even more extreme cold than high 30's work best for some others?
Is it possible that SU is great right now due to some sort of self-selection? Is it possible that SU runners chose SU because they know that they succeed best in that climate?
Man Overboard wrote:
I"ve said it before and I'll say it again: Its (a) the hills and (b) the forced rest in the offseason.
What forced rest in the offseason?
