What would you tell your kid if they wanted to major in medieval history??

Education is an honorable pursuit. Discuss with them their real interests and how they see it playing out over the next 4 years/post-graduation. Do they want to pursue that simply because that is what they are interested in now? What are their ultimate (at least currently..) career objectives, even rough ideas. You can set yourself up for a good job/grad education after undergrad regardless of major if you have the right pre-reqs/involvement/networking etc. Basically, it depends what they want to do with that major. If the major alone won't get them far enough, talk to them about adding a minor, the importance of joining organizations, etc etc to be a stronger applicant (to jobs or grad) down the line.

Calm down. We disagree on some things, agree on others. You've made a number of gratuitous and faulty inferences regarding me, most of which are wildly off base. I think 800 dude's post offered the best advice.

W. Mitty wrote:

Calm down. We disagree on some things, agree on others. You've made a number of gratuitous and faulty inferences regarding me, most of which are wildly off base. I think 800 dude's post offered the best advice.

One of the great frauds perpetuated on kids today, by many colleges, is this myth about the nobility of the pursuit of higher education without an understanding of it is as a means to an end that has tremendous bearing on the quality of life.

So many kids guided down this nobility of education path, graduate with huge bills and no desirable employable skills. I will say universities are a bit better at understanding this than they were 10 years ago.

College is a huge investment and many students make very poor investment decisions that they have to pay for the rest of their lives. I would think a college would have data to present to students about what career paths students who graduated with specific majors took. In any investment, past returns on that investment would be an important decision factor.

Kids need to make educational investment decisions with their eyes open. Colleges need to be honest and give give data about what occupations certain majors lead to.

This is all just logical, its not as you would claim simply babbitry. I guess if you have a well connected family, maybe then it doesn't matter.

If you want your kid to walk out of a school with a job skill send him to trade school or get an associates degree in something specialized.

A four year degree is not "job training" in the way you describe it.

Most of today's recent grads will change careers something like 7 times. Whatever they learn in college needs to be able to support them through those changes -- a specific job skill learned for the first job may not translate to the second, third, fourth..

College is about creating a well-rounded individual who can adapt and learn, not an creating an automaton who can only do one thing. That's what the trades and apprenticeships are for.

I think part of the problem here is that today's college students seem to think that simply by going to college, they're guaranteed a huge salary, endless opportunities, and they'll be set for life. Who told them that? I graduated into a recession, often worked two jobs, ended up getting a Master's degree, and now AM comfortable, but I sure as hell wasn't in that shape at age 23. Sometimes it takes time.

MarcusM wrote:

One of the great frauds perpetuated on kids today, by many colleges, is this myth about the nobility of the pursuit of higher education without an understanding of it is as a means to an end that has tremendous bearing on the quality of life.

Well, if that's what you think about the value of higher education, then I guess nothing anyone said on this thread was going to convince you that your son's interests were worthy of respect or consideration.

Personally, I'd join the voices who say that the main point of an undergraduate education is to learn how to think and have an opportunity to explore. My undergrad degree was in physics. My job these days has nothing whatsoever to do with physics, but the degree opened a lot of doors -- not the content or title of the degree, but the fact that it was an intellectually rigorous degree and I performed very well in it.

If anything, that's the advice I'd give to your son and others. Do what you're interested in, but just make sure you do it to the maximum of your ability. There are plenty of opportunities for people who have proven they can think clearly and perform under pressure.

Go to college, major in whatever you want....

...join the military to get your student loans paid off...

...get out after your first enlistment...

Now you have veterans preference for various government jobs.

Alan

Exactly.

MarcusM, one reason I posted the link to the chart showing GRE by major was to indicate the value of signalling. Employers look for smart kids.

And kids who work hard.

Interesting article for you and your kid to read

https://www.noodle.com/articles/how-to-do-well-in-school-use-these-6-business-strategies?utm_source=cnn&utm_medium=link&utm_content=article&utm_campaign=Partnership_CNN

W. Mitty wrote:

Since your son was a philosophy major, he is probably pretty smart -- must have gotten it from his mother! Again, check out these graphs plotting GRE scores by majors.

Just one more thing: I AM my son's mother. Yes, a woman, posting on LetsRun. You have some very valid points but you need to stop with the cheesy comments. They totally devalue your argument.

Smug Much?? wrote:

W. Mitty wrote:

Since your son was a philosophy major, he is probably pretty smart -- must have gotten it from his mother! Again, check out these graphs plotting GRE scores by majors.

Just one more thing: I AM my son's mother. Yes, a woman, posting on LetsRun. You have some very valid points but you need to stop with the cheesy comments. They totally devalue your argument.

I see. Just one question: do you regularly use the name "Smug Much??" or did you create it as a rejoinder to one of my posts?

Viewing a college degree as simply job training is just soo sooo wrong, heck many of the jobs that now "require a degree" only do that as a screening mechanism since you can get into real trouble if you give a pre-employment test or other device.

Can you really call someone "educated" if they can make a spread sheet smoke but they clueless about The Trail of Tears, Gettysburg, and haven't read any of the great novels?

Jhjbhhjbbhjjbh wrote:

This is one place where I think that the government should intervene.

There should be no more than 50 students accepted in that programs across the entire US every year. Only one University should be allowed to offer such a program.

Useless programs should be controlled somehow...

People just end up packing debt, studying useless stuff and then what? It's almost criminal...

You think the government should intervene and tell you what you can and can't study for higher education? How about this. Don't go into crippling debt to study something that isn't going to help you pay it back.

W. Mitty wrote:

I understand the OP's point of view; I just disagree his premise that college is solely or mostly about job training. We both agree that a kid can add other courses or a minor to make himself more employable. You and your son were smart to do so.

Since your son was a philosophy major, he is probably pretty smart -- must have gotten it from his mother! Again, check out these graphs plotting GRE scores by majors.

http://blogs.discovermagazine....hR_H_lVikohttp://stephenlaw.blogspot.com...ng-in.html

Click to enlarge. Note which fields have the smartest students.

I'll agree with you on some points. I think that college is a balance between expanding yourself with studying some subjects that might be trivial to your future job while also giving yourself some specific skills for your career. I do not think that $100k for a Medieval History degree is money well spent for the average 18 year old.

That said, you aren't making a great point about a liberal education preparing one for a career with those charts, because it appears you are misinterpreting the data of the graphs you keep linking. You are linking various plots of GRE scores based on INTENDED major for grad school. I'm not going to read the entire article, but it appears the serious looking philosophy intellectual who wrote one article may not have grasped that key point either.

For a multitude of reasons, those graphs are largely irrelevant to what is being discussed about the usefulness of a BS degree in Medieval History for future employment. Analyzing data and finding sources of error, relevance to conclusions and causality is a core focus of required lab courses for sciences/engineering at any reputable institution. Would you agree that those are valuable skills that transfer to more than just a career?

fact checker:

Thank you, those are good points. Yes, I certainly agree that "analyzing data and finding sources of error, relevance to conclusions...are valuable skills that transfer to more than just a career."

I included two graphs because they capture snapshots for entering college freshman (SAT) and graduating seniors (GRE). There are valid concerns about what they actually measure (see MarcusM's argument that they largely correlate with socioeconomic status), but set that aside for the moment.

Let's focus on the key issue that you rephrased: the usefulness of a BS degree in Medieval History for future employment. First, as noted ad nauseam in earlier posts, I disagree with the central premise that the primary purpose of a university degree is for job training, but let's also set that aside, and argue on your own terms.

You are astute to notice that those plots show "GRE scores based on INTENDED major for grad school", so you state that they are largely irrelevant for employment in non-academic job markets, and thus detract from my other points. Right? Is that a fair restatement?

My argument here is that part of the financial value of a degree rests upon its signalling value to employers, who prefer smart and hard working kids. Those plots show several liberal arts majors as belonging in the upper quadrant, at least in terms of average intelligence, and hence as attractive future employees. (The scores do not directly measure hard work.) It's relative position vis-a-vis other majors that counts.

My chain of reasoning depends on the assumption that the relative position of those GRE scores are proxies for all students in a given major, not just the ones motivated to apply to grad school. I may be right or wrong on that; it's an empirical question for which I do not have the data.

To be fair to my side, I never stated that "$100k for a Medieval History degree is money well spent for the average 18 year old", with the operative word being "average." That's a strawman argument. As the posters "800 dude" and "hold the phone" put it so well, "Do what you're interested in, but just make sure you do it to the maximum of your ability."

There is another way to approach the question whether a degree in Medieval History, or some other esoteric liberal arts degree, is detrimental to future employment prospects. Consider the case of St. John's College, a great books school with campuses in Annapolis and Sante Fe. St. John's curriculum (which I love -- check it out online) makes medieval history look crassly practical. You can look up the statistics for their alumni placement outcomes -- they are pretty good; their graduates get jobs. (For the love of g*d, I don't have the time to be more precise than that, i.e. to do or reference a proper statistical study vs. other colleges.)

Finally, we should acknowledge that this entire subject is part of an old and interminable debate on the purpose of education and is unlikely to be settled in the message boards of a running forum. Reasonable and civil discussion even with the occasional zinger is, however, the hallmark of a liberal arts education.

Runningart2004 wrote:

Go to college, major in whatever you want....

...join the military to get your student loans paid off...

...get out after your first enlistment...

Now you have veterans preference for various government jobs.

Alan

Yep; you can get that job sorting mail at the post office, where the phrase "go postal" was coined.

Surprise! wrote:

You think the government should intervene and tell you what you can and can't study for higher education? How about this. Don't go into crippling debt to study something that isn't going to help you pay it back.

But that could be any major.