Just realized Wheating's 3:30 was at Monaco... no wonder it was a fluke.

nobody here has mentioned a comment by Nick Willis about the Monaco Herculis meet. apparently you have to stand around in a waiting room prior to most big meets, but in monaco it's s much shorter amount of time or something, so you don't stiffen up right before the race.

i think he mentioned that in a recent interview. probably on flotrack...i can't check it now or i would.

bad wigins is BAD wrote:

Distance running is not an act of jumping into the air at all. That is a total waste of energy because going in the vertical direction does NOTHING for a runner. I guarantee Kiprop and Dibaba are masters at minimizing wasted energy in the vertical direction, i.e. they stay at a very steady level and do not bob up and down.

You remind me of my crazy old college coach who just made up notions about running with no sources.

You sound like you are just as crazy as your old college coach. Distance running and any running is an act of jumping. How else do you think you get both feet off the ground?

Bad Wigins has claimed in other threads (falsely) that Kiplagat and Kiprop have been the only two to break 3:30 since 2010 NOT including Monaco races.

Nixon Chepseba broke 3:30 twice in 2012. His first time breaking it was in HENGELO where he ran 3:29.9. He won the race outright, beating Souleiman who ran 3:30.3 (that 3:30.3 remained Souleiman's PR until 2014 in Monaco where he ran 3:29.6, a very reasonable improvement over two years if you ask me). It's also reasonable to think Chepseba could have been pushed slightly faster if Kiplagat or Kiprop were in that race.

Two months later, Chepseba ran 3:29.8 in MONACO. He finished second in that race, about one second behind the winner Asbel Kiprop, who ran 3:28.9.

Chepseba was worth ~3:29 mid in 2012 on a "real" track as Wigins would like to say. However, he only ran 3:29.8 on the trampoline track in Monaco WITH a pacer the whole way, unlike Hengelo.

Sure there's some evidence behind the claim that Monaco is "too" fast, but there's plenty of evidence the other direction too.

Here are the 2010 results. Kiplagat ran 3:29.27 and would later run 3:27.64 there, drafting off of Kiprop. Look at the quality of the pacers. They may have gone out too fast, but you can see that they are paying for big-time pacers, and the athletes are all going for time at this meet, unlike most. Wheating and Gregson were healthy and in prime condition for this meet. It was no fluke. Wheating was simply never healthy and in prime shape again, nor was Gregson. Wheating preceded this, his first European 1500m race, with a 1:44.6? 800m in Paris. The difference was that in Paris (a race I was at the stadium for), he sat back in last most of the way and was too far back in not that fast a race to do much, but in Monaco, sitting back near the back and running close to lane 2 most of the way, didn't hurt him as much because the pace was so fast at the front. He even got interfered with and almost fell about 500m into the race. Not only did he run 3:30.9, but had he run tight to the rail the whole way and not been interfered with, even with his tendency to the late dash, he would have run 3:28, with probably an extra 3-5 meters per lap from running on the outside, and getting less drafting as well. As Kiprop just showed in London, it is not about the track or the fitness of the athlete as much as it is about the pacers AND the attempt by the athletes to run a fast time.

2010 Monaco 1500m

RE: OFFICIAL 1500M RESULTS - MONACO GRAND PRIX 7/22/2010 1:49PM - 1 KIPLAGAT, Silas KEN 3:29.27 WL 4 3

2 LAALOU, Amine MAR 3:29.53 PB 4 4

3 CHOGE, Augustine Kiprono KEN 3:30.22 SB 7 2

4 WHEATING, Andrew USA 3:30.90 PB

5 GREGSON, Ryan AUS 3:31.06 AR

6 LOMONG, Lopez SUD 3:32.20 PB

7 LAGAT, Bernard KEN 3:32.51 SB

8 MAKHLOUFI, Toufik ALG 3:32.94 PB

9 KEMBOI, Nicholas KEN 3:33.76

10 KOMEN, Daniel Kipchirchir KEN 3:34.84

11 IGUIDER, Abdelaati MAR 3:37.80

12 NDIWA, Remmy Limo KEN 3:38.30

13 MANZANO, Leonel MEX 3:42.93 1 6

CHEBOI, Collins KEN DNF

KRUMMENACKER, David USA DNF

Intermediate times:

400m Krummenacker, David (USA) 53.81

800m Cheboi, Collins (KEN) 1:51.15

1200m Cheboi, Collins (KEN) 2:47.18

Zat0pek wrote:

dkny64 wrote:

"The work will focus on the resurfacing of the areas concerned: the first few centimetres of the upper layer of the track will be scraped off, then replaced by rubber resin, cast in one jointless block. This is made possible due to the physico-chemical compatibility between the new and old resin. The track will be faster and therefore conducive to new records, including at the next Herculis athletics meeting - Diamond League on Thursday 22nd July 2010."

Thanks for that. The term "rubber resin" is awfully vague. Do we know any more about the specific compound used?

I don't, but apparently the contractor for the resurfacing project was an outfit called CONICA MEGDE, so you might be able to find additional info from them [although I didn't find "conica megde" when I did a quick google search.]

reed wrote:

nobody here has mentioned a comment by Nick Willis about the Monaco Herculis meet. apparently you have to stand around in a waiting room prior to most big meets, but in monaco it's s much shorter amount of time or something, so you don't stiffen up right before the race.

i think he mentioned that in a recent interview. probably on flotrack...i can't check it now or i would.

That seems like an interesting point.

Your warm-up being dictated by the meet process could really affect you.

I always hated a delay after I was ready to go.

I ran some calculations last night from data imported from the alltime-athletics website for 800m / 1500m at Monaco. I don't have them with me now, but this is what I remember:

* From 1987 to 2008, athletes ran on average 0.5 seconds SLOWER in the 1500m at Monaco than their fastest time elsewhere that year.

* From 2009 to 2015, athletes ran on average 1.8 seconds FASTER at Monaco than elsewhere.

* For the 800m, athletes ran ~1 second SLOWER from 1987-2008 and ~0.3 seconds FASTER from 2009-2015.

The main problem is the track was resurfaced in 2010 not 2009 as far as I know. But until 2009 there was never a year where athletes averaged more than 0.5 seconds faster than elsewhere, but every year since then the average has been 1.5-2 seconds faster. The graph makes it look significant. The 800m is less consistent.

The alltime-athletics site only includes performances under 3:38 and 1:46. If an athlete didn't run under 3:38 elsewhere the same year they did so at Monaco, I did not include them in the results at all. Most years have 5-10 data points and including only top 5 finishers shows the same trend.

2010 was also the first year of the Diamond League and it is possible runners before 2009 had more options to run fast outside of Monaco. But it DOES appear that all else being equal athletes have gotten ~2.3s more of a boost at Monaco in the last 6 years.

A few points about Monaco.

1) It might be the fastest track in the world, but I doubt it has anything to do with the surface, but maybe to do with the base. The track is built on the 3rd floor of the facility. There is a swimming pool underneath it. To get to the track level, you have to walk up three flights of stairs to get to it (Feels very weird. You expect to come out above the track, not on it). This has always been like that though, so I don't give credit to a post 2010 conspiracy. Some say the Dempsy facility gives an extra spring because it is on docks?

2) Ever since Michael Stember got his Olympic qualifier there in 2000, the track has been joked about being downhill.

3) Since the start of the Diamond League era, and the end of the Golden League/Super Grand Prix era (2009?) the 1500m races have been largely a farce. By that I mean meet directors have allowed ridiculous field sizes (18-21 guys) because there are only half the number of quality 1500m races on the calendar now. In the past, there was a 1500m at EVERY major meet, so all the top20 guys could pick and choose their races to get their qualifying times in. Monaco has been an exception to this, and has kept field sizes very exclusive. how does this help? It means you can run your own race off the start line, and not have to fight with 20 others for positioning in the first 200m. This allows for more even pacemaking, and much better times on the 2nd and 3rd laps (key to a good 1500m time).

4) Most major meets have 30-45 minute call rooms time (the world and Olympics are 50-55minutes). This makes getting your warmup timed right very challenging. Monaco only is 10-15minutes at most, and the call room is close to the start line, so you are able to get your warm-up routine timed perfectly. This along with perfect temperatures, allows you to be at your ideal preparation right before the gun goes off. It really can be a challenge when you warm up, only to have to sit on chairs for 30minutes in tight quarters and only a 30m area to do some high knees!

5) Since 2009, there has been someone willing to put their neck on the line and go with he requested pace. El G used to do this every race, but these days, few are willing to put a target on their back (I'm the worst culprit of this). Choge did it, then Chepseba, and now Kiprop the last three years. I sign up for this race, because I know it's going to be fast, and so I put all my eggs into this basket for hopes for a PR. Stanford distance races have the same effect as this.

6). When you do strides on the track the day before, it doesn't feel fast, and always feels like a head wind which ever straight you use. None of us hit impressive times for our strides, so take that as you will, but I would venture to say the surface is nothing special like Rieti or the old Georgia Tech track.

I would include Rieti, Rome, Athens and Zagreb as just as fast tracks. Perhaps Oxy also (but for different reasons - wide bends)

Nice analysis!

Thanks for the interesting insights, Mr Willis [or to whoever is doing this good a job of pretending to be Mr Willis.]

Mr Wigins - do you have a response?

Star wrote:

How many venues have the competitors (not the rabbits) even attempted to go out in under 1:52?

So ask yourself the question, "Why don't the athletes attempt to go with the rabbits through 800 in 1:52 or under at other meets?"

They are prepared to do so in Monaco but not elsewhere!? That makes no sense. Just as it isn't obvious why Kiprop clearly goes out to run his fastest at this same meet every year, a month before the major champs. Why not wait to Zurich or Brussels a week or so after the championships, when he should be nearer to his peak?

Why put all your eggs in the Monaco basket? Not just Kiprop but most of the world's leading 1500 guys.

There have been countless quotes during tv transmissions of this event from athletes and commentators alike, saying that the track is super fast. Which from the results in the middle distances, it clearly is.

So we have the athletes saying its a super fast track, the commentators, the athletes trying their hardest there a month before they need to be at a season peak, and statistically they run, on average, 2.0 secs faster there than anywhere else in any given season since 2010. If it were a few tenths, then it could be dismissed as an anomaly, but when it is 2.0 secs from a pool of 30 runners, then something is giving the athletes as advantage there. And the athletes know this, hence why they all go all out for fast times.

E.g. Iguider has been a perennial 3:31/3: 32 performer for 5 or 6 seasons now, yet at Monaco he pops out a 3:29 high and then a 3:28 high! Any detailed analysis of his other races and splits show he is a very good 3:31 man. Ovett & Scott used to run 3:31s & 3:32's with ease and were better 1500m runners (not even taking different eras into consideration) than Iguider or Centrowitz or Willis or Wote, yet all these have run faster times over the distance in Monaco.

And yes, there have been competitors willing to go through 800m in 1:52 or faster at other meets in recent years. Just from a quick check,

Rieti 11 - Kiprop - 1:49.9/3:30.4

Hengelo 12 - Chepseba - 1:51.2/3:29.9

Paris 13 - Souleiman - 1:51.2/3:32.5

Doha 14 - Kiprop - 1:52.0/3:29.1

Rieti 14 - Kiplagat - 1:52.1/3:31.4

But as you can see only 2 resulted in sub 3:30's and none quicker than 3:29.

The Dingo wrote:

Chepseba was worth ~3:29 mid in 2012 on a "real" track as Wigins would like to say. However, he only ran 3:29.8 on the trampoline track in Monaco WITH a pacer the whole way, unlike Hengelo.

Sure there's some evidence behind the claim that Monaco is "too" fast, but there's plenty of evidence the other direction too.

'Some evidence!' The overwhelming evidence produced by Deanouk shows that of the 29 athletes who run times in the world's top 12 at Monaco since 2010, only 1, Chepseba, who you use to suggest this is not the case, ran faster on another track sometime that season. That is 1 out of 29 athletes. 26 ran an average of 2 secs faster at Monaco than on all other tracks. 2 didn't run another 1500 anywhere else.

The track is probably has a legit surface, but the overwhelming evidence shows it to be much the fastest track for 1500m running anywhere in the world for the past 6 seasons, since the track's surface was changed. There is no argument about this. It is statistically a fact.

Great run Mr Willis!

May I ask if you aim to be at your season peak for Monaco or the major Champs a month later in mid August? Are you able to maintain your peak form all this time, and why have none of the world's top 10 managed to improve their Monaco times at Zurich, Brussels, Rieti, etc in the 2 weeks following the Championships, in the last 5 seasons?

I'm not trying to be patronising or catch you out, as you clearly know a lot more about running tracks than almost anyone on here, I am just generally curious as to what a top athlete like yourself sees it. Thanks

Not that my recent championship record gives me much authority, but preparing for a one off time-trial and preparing for a 3 round championship, are two totally different things. I'm normally in good 5000m shape going into Monaco, but not ready to break 50s if I was thrown into a 4x4 relay. Come championship time, you have to have your speed ready for tactical races, and with that comes a slight sacrifice in endurance training (for me anyway). After 3 rounds of a championship, I am only 75% of my former fit self, and running on the last remaining fuel at the bottom of the barrel. I've never broken 3.35 after a championship. All my 3.32s or faster have come in the month of July (ie strength with some speed)

The Dingo wrote:

Chepseba was worth ~3:29 mid in 2012 on a "real" track as Wigins would like to say.

Congratulations on finding the one exception that proves the rule. But if he ran 3:29.90, he was worth 3:29.90, not 3:29 mid. The fact remains - 5 3:29's in over 5 years in the real world, versus a 3:26, 3:27's, 3:28's, and a small army of 3:29 runners at Monaco.

I don't care how many alleged Nick Willises claim that they can set amazing PR's if only they can get out of the call room quicker. That is just ridiculous, meets everywhere would run the same quick routine if it made any such difference. And milers would follow the rabbits all the time if all it took were to just go for it.

There are many meets with elite level rabbited miles, and only one Monaco. If it were equal to other tracks, it would be insanely improbable for all the elites to target just one race, let alone nearly all of them succeed. Somehow, with all their separate training schedules, they all peak at the exact same time - and often, it was mentioned before, too early in the season?

Milers used to target the Bislett games. But Monaco's results would be like ten 3:48's in one dream mile. The stars do not align like that year after year for any event.

All my 3.32s or faster have come in the month of July (ie strength with some speed)

Correction, I ran 3.32 in Rieti in 2013, but was still on the way up following a hamstring injury. Also ran 3.34 in Zagreb in 2011, so I should change to never having gone under 3.34 post championships. It's hard!

Not that my recent championship record gives me much authority, but preparing for a one off time-trial and preparing for a 3 round championship, are two totally different things. I'm normally in good 5000m shape going into Monaco, but not ready to break 50s if I was thrown into a 4x4 relay. Come championship time, you have to have your speed ready for tactical races, and with that comes a slight sacrifice in endurance training (for me anyway). After 3 rounds of a championship, I am only 75% of my former fit self, and running on the last remaining fuel at the bottom of the barrel. I've never broken 3.35 after a championship. All my 3.32s or faster have come in the month of July (ie strength with some speed)[/quote]

Thank you for taking the time out to reply to me Mr Willis. I really appreciate it.

I would have thought that with all the endurance training in the bank, you'd be able to get through the rounds of the 1500 and remain close to full fitness for the final!? Then the improved speed will come into play in a more tactical final?

But then that is easy for me to say, something else to actually go and do or deliver!

Best of luck in Beijing btw. :)

Dang, Willis the Man Himself chumping out Bad Wigins on LR!! Hats of to wigins for his uber-successful troll though!

As for the warmup, the sprinters were on the track doing warmups as Dibaba was setting her WR. Never see that in other meets. Apparently Monaco has very tight schedule and adheres to it, allowing precise warmup so essential for fast races.

Also, as mentioned before, Monaco is the only meet where the rabbit (Kiprop) is GUARANTEED to run 3:26-29. Everyone on that start line is prepared for the exact same scenario, creating perfect time trial mindset.

Also, if the track "feels fast" (for all the other reasons mentioned), their is at least a slight placebo effect, which allows for faster running in itself.

dkny64 wrote:

Bottom line: it seems likely that the Monaco track is about 1% faster than other DL tracks for top 1500m runners.

Presumably this would work for mediocre runners too. Let's ask them to put on a series of open meetings!