Destiny Collins and Great Oak Runners

They do 70+ mpw- a lot for high school girls

Also if you look the team last year was all underclassmen also none of the past girls did much after hs. They run them into the ground and get the most they can out of it

they recruit. their district allows you to choose which high school you want to go to, and they try to pull in strong talent.

Plus the running them into the ground thing.

Runner145- wrote:

They do 70+ mpw- a lot for high school girls

Also if you look the team last year was all underclassmen also none of the past girls did much after hs. They run them into the ground and get the most they can out of it

Most high school runners don't do much after high school.

They do high mileage weeks and dont think long term. They produce state champs that colleges want to recruit. When they get to college, however, most of them are burned out from all the running during high school and cant maintain running nearly the same amount during college, or they just dont have the drive to run like they did in high school

Most kids don't run in college or really come of anything there anyways so what's the problem with training hard and trying to win state titles?

Another bashing GO thread, Guess everyone got tired of bashing Sartatoga Springs, then FM? If you ain't kicking ass no one is taking about you, keep it up GO.

Agree that GO is a bit of a meatgrinder, but are you thinking these girls are supposed to be starts in college, then go on to be professionals and run in the Olympics...and then what? No. Most of them are opening doors to college with their running, so good for them for busting their butts in HS to make that happen.

Destiny Collins is special. She will do very well in college.

There are basically two goals for HS runners.

Run fast enough to win championships.

Run fast enough to get accepted to a college that you otherwise would not.

GO runners do exactly that. So what is the problem?

Cali-ente wrote:

There are basically two goals for HS runners.

Run fast enough to win championships.

Run fast enough to get accepted to a college that you otherwise would not.

GO runners do exactly that. So what is the problem?

The problem is that their road to success is littered with injured runners we never hear about. And runners getting college scholarships, but not performing well, which puts them under increased stress.

And you know what, that's just life! People need to accept that running is brutal and for the most part you might as well strike while it's hot, so kudos to Doug for a job well done.

Part of brings GO criticism is simply Doug's personality, it's a bit harsh at times, but he cares about the kids and does his best, so I have to tip my hat to him.

SoCal Coach wrote:

Cali-ente wrote:

There are basically two goals for HS runners.

Run fast enough to win championships.

Run fast enough to get accepted to a college that you otherwise would not.

GO runners do exactly that. So what is the problem?

The problem is that their road to success is littered with injured runners we never hear about. And runners getting college scholarships, but not performing well, which puts them under increased stress.

And you know what, that's just life! People need to accept that running is brutal and for the most part you might as well strike while it's hot, so kudos to Doug for a job well done.

Part of brings GO criticism is simply Doug's personality, it's a bit harsh at times, but he cares about the kids and does his best, so I have to tip my hat to him.

+1

I've talked with Doug in person a few times and via email through this board. Most kids do not produce after HS and quite a few of the top college kids were not the top of their class. Talking unsubstantiated trash about a top coach/program is what drives legitimate coaches/programs away from this board. With that said, I would think that Collins most definitely has the potential to be a great college runner but she still has another year of HS to impress those lucky enough to watch her run.

Doug, if you are reading this would you mind commenting on the prefered racing strategy of your program (take it out hard and hold on)? I feel that a more even-paced race would produce faster times but then again you have eight 3200 runners faster than my #1...

Thanks!

I have never met Doug. I am a College Coach. When I email Doug about any of his runners I receive an email back right away and he has always been helpful. If I email 50 HS coaches - I get maybe 20 responses back (pathetic) - I have never met Doug but from my interactions with him via email he cares about his kids and that means a lot to me - plus - what 9 diff. girls under 11:10?

No secret, Great Oak needs to pack on overly high mileage for their average runners to compete with other teams talented runners. Great Oak girls 70+ more like 90+ for Collins and other top girls. 110+ for Isaac Cortez and other top boys. Cortez put in a 110 mi/week to compete in the 800m at State? Why?

Where are you getting this information from because its not true. It's pretty sad people like you make up fake information about a bunch of kids for no reason. Honestly what do you gain from it? Find a new hobby or at least post something true for once.

They do run a lot of mileage. I don't see why that is a big deal. Many of you are focusing on the outliers, though, and not the norm.

Their varsity girls are closer to 60ish weekly. They're not all doing what their top dogs do.

Cortez did run 110mpw at one point unless he lied about it on twitter. It was retweeted by several major accounts.

Anyway....I'm willing to bet the typical Great Oak girl only runs about 30-40 miles per week. He has 100+ girls on the team and many of them haven't made the choice to commit to more than that. In a way, Great Oak's culture is probably a microcosm of what people purport America's to be - those who work the hardest earn the big rewards.

I'm not trying to be a hater, but what is your response to why they don't have very many of their top athletes performing well at the next level?

And next step? wrote:

I'm not trying to be a hater, but what is your response to why they don't have very many of their top athletes performing well at the next level?

I keep seeing arguments like this against mileage for younger runners and have to ask why people think that running more when you're younger "inhibits" development. It isn't that you have "burned" something so much as developed close to potential.

Also having gone through the NCAA system for 5 years, people are more likely to mentally burn out than physically.

Not to mention studies show that hard interval training causes mitochondrial damage for developing athletes, not mileage.

In short, if you're close to as good as you're going to get from optimal training, you will have diminishing returns as you continue to train. This doesn't mean what you did was wrong, just that your ceiling is not that high. Some kids do great and continue to develop after having run 70-90 mpw in high school. Some kids see diminishing returns and give up mentally.

Hi Everyone,

There are definitely some interesting theories here...

The truth is our kids work consistently throughout the year to improve as athletes. We do a lot of what everyone else does. 110+ miles a week? Does anyone really believe during a school week a kid has time to do that type of mileage with school, sleep, homework (most kids with 3-5 AP classes), eating, dating, etc.? CA has practice time limits, I don't think we could even fit anywhere near that type of mileage in if we wanted to.

The truth is...

-School Size - 3700 (public)

-Area - Middle Class

-Feeder Middle Schools - 2 large schools

-Weather - great year round

-Track Mileage? 800 kids 45-55 miles a week, 3200 kids 55-65 miles a week

-Do we recruit outside athletes? No. Find one person that can say I have ever approached them to join my team. You won't find one.

-Do we make cuts? Yes, we have a high expectation that athletes are on the team to improve and compete, not just be on the team because they want to add it to a college resume.

-Do our kids fail in college? I have seen nothing to suggest that our kids are doing any better or worse in college than anyone else's kids are. Once they leave our program and go to the college coach there isn't much more we can do for them. Some put on 20 pounds and never run fast again, but get a 4 year education. There have been very few of our runners that have gone on to the next level that haven't finished and received a degree. Many that want to coach in the future.

-Do we think long term? That is the basic structure of our program. Anyone that says otherwise is literally just throwing darts and hoping that is the answer.

-Are we a meatgrinder? Not even close. On the flip side, the 80's are over and the era of 30 miles a week is gone. Go to NXN, speak to the top coaches.

-Are we littered with injured runners? Who? When? Such an easy message to post, without any thought or basis. We had 2 injury issues this year, Destiny had tendonitis in XC, and Kiyena Beatty strained her calf at the end of the track season and we rested her for XC to be on the safe side. With the many kids we have, how is that a lot? The majority of kids leave the program not due to any injury issues, but for academics, boyfriends or girlfriends, or in my opinion laziness. They just don't want to work that hard.

-My personality? I'm intense. Never made any statement that I wasn't. Some people like it, some are put off by it. At the end of the day I will fight for my kids and that can be off putting for some. I try to be the best person I can be and that still won't please a lot of people. So be it.

-Racing strategy? The majority of the time we teach the kids to go out hard. Why? We have been to NY twice for XC and they take it out hard. We are still trying to beat FM and we have to be prepared for break neck speeds from the gun.

-Isaac has never run 110 mile week. If he ever tweeted something like that it was probably a joke in response to some stupid hate thread on, wait for it...Letsrun. C'mon people, he is an 800 runner.

-Who sets the goals of our program? Most are set by the athletes. They tell us what they are passionate about and we do our best to coach them to that level or race.

-After our 4x1600 at Arcadia this year I talked to a lot of coaches who said things like "we're not private like you guys." or "We don't recruit like you guys." All I can do is laugh I guess because people are literally grasping at straws to try to figure out why we are good. We have great kids and dedicated parents and coaches. I believe we work hard consistently. It is literally that simple.

-The best thing about XC? I believe it is a really positive sport compared to other sports I've been around or coached (soccer). Lets keep it that way.

We will travel to the Bob Firman Invite in ID next year with our top 7's and we are excited to take on the best teams from Washington, ID, Utah, etc. Love us or hate us, we do our best to compete against the best in the US each year.

Coach Soles