Why does everybody hate MDs???

Ok, if you really want to even out the playing field, most MD's (after residency) work 56 hours a week. At 56hrs a week, I could gross approx 190k. I used to work 60hrs a week, and would rack in 219k a year after my OT diffrential. That's about the same amount of time that my friend was spending just studying during medical school and forgoing income during that time. And I didn't just make it rain with my money; I invested the excess wisely, and now can sit back knowing that at the end of the day, I would have made more than most primary care docs (which is sad, and I really hope they become compensated better in the future). I have since dropped down to 40/week this year for personal reasons, but am considering working up to 80/week and see what happens (I calculate 340k-ish would be my gross). Thank the union for that.

As weird as it is, the west coast is not particularly a high paying area for mds. (200-280 seems to be the pay in Cali for most specialties, excluding neuro and derm, etc)

I know that some md's in the South and Midwest make over half a mil, but that implies that an MD would have to practice and live in those areas; Sorry, but I really enjoy making decent bank in California for a plethora of reasons other than just money.

I put this post up as a point of comparison: As an RN, I can make just as much (over a career with sound investing) as an md if I work just as hard and as many hours as a doc. RN's are always financially compared to MD's. And for most other places in the country, there is a huge pay diffrential between RN's and MD's, and it really isn't fair. yes, MD's statistically carry the burden of malpractice with patient's, and yes they work alot; But as a ground level nurse, we are more statistically prone than md's to patient abuse, workplace injuries, and fatigue, which I believe should also be accounted for with our compensation as well. You can have your own opinions about RN pay, etc, but I'm glad that Nor Cali RNs are fairly compensated for what we do.As for the rest of the country, I hope they catch up.

ard wrote:

And for most other places in the country, there is a huge pay diffrential between RN's and MD's, and it really isn't fair. yes, MD's statistically carry the burden of malpractice with patient's, and yes they work alot; But as a ground level nurse, we are more statistically prone than md's to patient abuse, workplace injuries, and fatigue, which I believe should also be accounted for with our compensation as well. You can have your own opinions about RN pay, etc, but I'm glad that Nor Cali RNs are fairly compensated for what we do.As for the rest of the country, I hope they catch up.

You seriously think someone with a 4 year bachelors degree in a relatively easy course of study, who can't diagnose, write prescriptions, perform surgeries, or do anything really, should get compensated at the same level as a person with 12 years of education in a very difficult course of study who can do all those things? You're delusional. I know you guys work hard, but I don't think any floor nurse should be making 130k a year for 40 hrs a week, unless there are literally no nurses in California. Around here nurse get 60-70k which is more than enough. Hell, teachers ge paid half of that around here, and I would argue their job is just as difficult as that of a nurse with a comparable level of education.

I do my own taxes, so I've done plenty or research and I know exactly what I'm paying.

I make less than $118k and spouse's earnings are ignored for payroll taxes, so I pay the full self employment (payroll) tax regardless of whether my wife makes $1 or $1 million. As I pointed out, you seem to be unaware that your employer is paying half of your payroll taxes. The total rate is [6.2% (Social Security) + 1.45% (Medicare)} * 2 (for employer portion) = 15.3%.

You're confusing payroll tax with withholding, they are completely separate - you don't get any refund on your payroll taxes. Self employed people don't have withholding as you don't get a paycheck - you just get what's left after business expenses, and make quarterly estimated payments throughout the year.

My wife doesn't have to pay for malpractice, but someone who's fully self-employed would. We do have plenty of student loans to pay, plus daycare so I can work (soon to be $42,000 for two kids, and that's after a subsidy by her employer). We live in expensive metro so we certainly aren't in a gated community as the other poster said - our neighbors are recent El Salvadorian immigrants and a group home for the mentally disabled. I'm far from an anti-tax crusader, I just think our tax system way too complicated and full of the wrong incentives. The government is giving me a very strong incentive to work less or not at all, which would result in far less tax revenue from us.

You're kidding yourself here. You having to "suffer patient abuse" is no different than a McDonald's worker complaining about suffering customer abuse.

Nurses are an excellent healthcare resource, and I very highly value mine. But you are not trained or qualified to practice medicine, to generate medical treatment plans, prescribe medications, perform procedures/surgeries, etc. Your job, primarily, entails executing orders that have (ostensibly) been thoughtfully placed for a patient by the physician, taking into account an infinite number of variables - an ability their extensive education has afforded them.

Again, I appreciate everything nurses do for patients and they are a vital role in the healthcare team. But the gravity of work/decision making/etc is infinitely greater with a physician vs. a nurse.

I'm not delusional, just realistic. You are basing your assumptions that education = income. Sorry my friend, that's not always the case. Perhaps you should take a course in economics to relieve yourself of your ignorance. You illustrated it yourself "teachers ge[t] paid half of that around here". I totally agree, they should get paid more. But it's market economics my friend. They won't get paid more, because the market won't allow for it. It's the exact same reason why CEO's and investment bankers get paid so much. Example: UCSF's Mark Larriat, who only has a masters in poly sci (now tell me if that's any harder than med school) makes over a million a year. He's probably has half the education an MD has received, yet he's getting paid disgustingly more. It's because there is a high demand for him and his set of skills, which isn't based on academic prowess, but other skills demanded by society. Tell me, am I still delusional? As intelligent as I assume you to be, please get your head out of your med books and see that higher ed doesn't necessarily mean higher pay.

Wow, you should visit a hospital some time, my friend. simply google "nurse experience workplace abuse/violence" and you'll get a plethora of studies that exemplify how we are in fact, different than a McDonald's worker complaining about customer abuse. I'm not trying to downplay the role of a physician, but just trying to make a point that RN's, like everybody else, would like to be fairly compensated for our work, and that it's hard to see equality when the next provider up makes on average 3-6 times more than what RN's take home. At the end of the day, being an RN or an MD/PA/nurse assistant/Pharmacist, whatever, etc, is a job. We all want a piece of the pie. we all want to to a good job and feel fairly paid for it. If it were really about the care, why would we get paid so much? Why do we have lengthy discussions about being fairly compensated? Why do we compare salaries? If it were really about the care, why wouldn't we just settle for the average pay so that the average Joe can actually afford healthcare? And the answer is...

You are fairly compensated enough for the low level of education that you have and the work that you do. Hospitals pay doctors 3-6 times more than nurses because of the sacrifices they make and the skills they bring to the hospital. And in the medical field, more education does equal more money because more education means more intellectual skills. I can't believe you are crying that "its not fair" that doctors make more than nurses, when nurses have no real skill or credentials that bring in money to the hospital. Patients come to the hospital for the doctors, not the nurses. I can see this will turn into a circular argument with no hope of resolution, arguing with people incapable of reason is like trying to push an egg through a brick wall, it's not happening. But It really does sicken me to see the prevailing attitude in this country seems to be " I want to be the boss, I want what the boss has, but I don't want to put in the work that it takes to be the boss." This is my last comment on this, have a good night.

Um, I'm a physician. I've visited a hospital or two . . .

As was stated by another poster, physicians are the ones doing the decision making. They are driving this ship. They are, far and away, the ones responsible for the overall care for the patient, and the complexity of decision making is greater than 3-6 times that of a nurse.

Also, I will be more direct: my discussion of the McDonalds worker analogy was to illustrate that it's just as non sequitur to say "patients are mean and abusive so we should be paid more" as it is to say "customers at McDonalds are mean and abusive so we should be paid more."

Black Med Student wrote:

But It really does sicken me to see the prevailing attitude in this country seems to be " I want to be the boss, I want what the boss has, but I don't want to put in the work that it takes to be the boss."

This, sadly, is what I see demonstrated much more frequently than I would like in the healthcare world.

In fact, it's really a microcosm of or extension of the general anti-intellecutalism movement going on in this country. People demonstrate the views BMS wrote about in the above quoted text, and when they realize they're not going to get their way, they try to devalue the work/contributions of those who have put in the time/effort to achieve a high level of performance and training. It's why people will bitch and moan about the $20 copay to see their physician, but then drop $500 on some fancy magic healing crystals they wave over their body. It makes absolutely no sense, but there is a prevailing idea of "those stuffy doctors with their ivory tower education don't understand MY body, I'm a SPECIAL SNOWFLAKE and my faith healer recognizes this."

This thread is seems to be more about salary now, but the reason people in hospitals get annoyed with some doctors is that doctors decide when everything happen and who does what. Other employees spend a lot of their day waiting for doctors, and taking instructions from doctors. If the doctor also has an unempathetic attitude (most don't, but some do), it can feel very insulting. I think that's mainly it.

This thread is seems to be more about salary now, but I'd say the reason people in hospitals get annoyed with some doctors is that doctors decide when everything happen and who does what. Other employees spend a lot of their day waiting for doctors, and taking instructions from doctors. If the doctor also has an unempathetic attitude (most don't, but some do), it can feel very insulting. I think that's mainly it.

Guy O'Leighken wrote:

This thread is seems to be more about salary now, but the reason people in hospitals get annoyed with some doctors is that doctors decide when everything happen and who does what. Other employees spend a lot of their day waiting for doctors, and taking instructions from doctors. If the doctor also has an unempathetic attitude (most don't, but some do), it can feel very insulting. I think that's mainly it.

Petty resentment is definitely a big part of it like you said.

The real reason people "hate" MDs is not because of money, but because they think they know better about everything than everyone else. This is why so many MDs have massive debt despite working long hours with great pay and why many doctors offices fail. They are financially ignorant but always believe they are the most intelligent person in the room.

I work for one, a great person, but he can't get out of his own way financially.

I used to live with a lot of pre-med students and they were all pretentious douchebags.

I dunno, I had a skin cancer that was encroaching on my eye and my doctor got the whole thing with a minimum of fuss and pain. And just this week I took a friend in for cararact surgery and her eye went from 20/200 to 20/25 overnight. So I don't hate those MDs,

You are totally correct about your payroll taxes and that other dude it totally wrong. however, I would argue that you are still being misleading in several ways...you are attributing all of the money that is taxed at a lower rate (or excluded from tax altogether) to your wife and all of your money on top of that. You could just as easily reverse those assumptions and calculate your income as the first one and that would result in a much, much lower figure. I would argue the correct way is to combine both your and your wife's income. You aren't really paying a higher percentage then her and she isn't really paying a higher percentage than you. Since you are filing jointly then the real effective rate is based on both of your incomes.

Most people also don't report their effective tax rate as including their FICA/SECA taxes. I would say maybe they all should, as it would give a more meaningful picture of total tax burden. However in this case to get an accurate picture they would also need to add in the amount of FICA taxes their employer pays as income as well as tax in order to get an apples to apples comparison to you.