finding the right recovery pace, does running too slowly hinder recovery?

my adrenals hurt wrote:

sdklfjasdkfj wrote:

Aerobically under developed actually means neurally under developed. Almost everyone ignores the neuroscience/skill factor of running. You are almost certainly not 'aerobically under developed' that is just pseudoscience that so many people (sheep) repeat ad infinitum.

What it means is that your slow pace should get faster with practice.

While the bulk of science is hard to ignore, and I don't wish to argue my current belief system vs. someone else's, I'm finding what "sdklfjasdkfj" has to say intuitively correct. "sdklfjasdkfj", what books would you recommend reading that speak to the importance of neural development being king?

I haven't read Brain Training for Runners by Matt Fitzgerald, but the titel implies what I think should be common sense but is largely ignored. Actually all the ex phys books I have read have a chapter or two devoted to the neuroscience as indeed they must. However a true integration of all the chapters is sadly lacking from the way people conceptualize athletic training.

Slow is good wrote:

Plenty of anecdotal evidence of top elite distance runners (i.e., Kenyans) running 12 min/miles on recovery days.

Nonsense. They don´t.

sdklfjasdkfj wrote:

I haven't read Brain Training for Runners by Matt Fitzgerald, but the titel implies what I think should be common sense but is largely ignored. Actually all the ex phys books I have read have a chapter or two devoted to the neuroscience as indeed they must. However a true integration of all the chapters is sadly lacking from the way people conceptualize athletic training.

Cool, I'll check that one out. I just read his work titled "RUN: The mind-body method of running by feel". It was a little raw, like his editor didn't feel like polishing it up, but there were a bunch of great nuggets in it. Brain Training was released three years earlier, so it could be a bit repetitive, but I see Noakes is listed as co-author.

Noakes is a clever man, but annoyingly ignorant about training methods.

I am also interested in the psychology of running as well as the skill factor. When we combine the two in a special way, we get that floating feeling where we are running fast and relatively fatigue free.

I asked Noakes himself about this, but he just didn't get what I was saying because he is obsessed with the Borg scale of perceived effort, which clouds his thinking. He also disses Lydiard, which is kinda worrying. Lydiard was a master of running philosophy and psychology.

Actually I don't believe in the hard day/easy day concept in a strict sense. I often string several hard days in a row followed by several easy days as and when required. I never follow a strict plan but rather a general one, because you don't know what you can do until truly inspired to go beyond your normal expectation, often by accident rather than design.

Yes, the floating feeling. I get it occasionaly, but not nearly often enough. When it happens, I actually feel I am going slower, but my watch then confirms that I am not going slower, but faster.

slogging too slow can be bad wrote:

Canova discussed on a thread how he doesn't let his athletes run too slow on their regeneration runs as it leads to a more prolonged eccentric loading/contraction with each foot strike (resulting in more muscle damage than if the athlete was running at a slightly faster pace, and ultimately impeding recovery). keep your cadence as quick as normal days, and focus on a really short ground contact time & being light on your feet. might require you to feel like your going "too fast", but will actually do less damage to your legs & allow for better recovery.

I was going to suggest something similar -- you may be using a different running form when you run easy.

About 10 years ago, several groups of Kenyans used my town of Boston as their base for the summer road race circuit. Their agent (initials LB) had them in crappy basement apts with no trails nearby. I met some (Abel Ondeyo and Hezron Otwori, along with some Ethiopians staying in the same apt) and would drive them to soft surface places to run and I would try to run with them. I also saw other groups of Kenyans running around Jamaica Pond and Brookline Res.

The Kenyans (not the Ethiopians) were masters of jogging. Every run started at 12 min pace or slower (not kidding). Morning runs would progress gradually from 12min pace to 5min-ish pace (guessing here since I would be dropped before that). Afternoon runs would be 12 min pace all the way. Single file, full sweats in summer, no talking, good form. They took the easy runs just as seriously as the hard ones. One time (this was another group) Mark Yatich told me "When you're legs are tired, run like this for one hour! Next day you feel better!" As he did this granny-jog.

As others have said, good form is key. When you go slow you have a tendency to overstride: the push-off is weak, so your center of gravity doesn't go as far forward as you expect, so you land ahead of it, and stress your quads/knees. This is what creates soreness from going "too slowly". So you must consciously keep torso upright, hips forward, abs engaged, quick turnover (but very easy-it's 12 min pace after all). You should be landing on your toes, under your c.o.g., but if not, don't force it, instead pay attention to your hip/torso alignment.

I wish I could run this slow. I simply cannot do it. It feels like awkward walking/shuffling.

american's 1st thought on recovery run: "how fast am i going?"

kenyan's (or someone who isn't a slave to the watch or garmin) 1st thought: "how do i feel?"

lots of good stuff in this thread now. definitely need to check in with my form on slower runs...

bostonperson wrote:

When you go slow you have a tendency to overstride: the push-off is weak, so your center of gravity doesn't go as far forward as you expect, so you land ahead of it, and stress your quads/knees. This is what creates soreness from going "too slowly". So you must consciously keep torso upright, hips forward, abs engaged, quick turnover (but very easy-it's 12 min pace after all). You should be landing on your toes, under your c.o.g., but if not, don't force it, instead pay attention to your hip/torso alignment.

Sorry but this is total BS. You have no real knowledge of basic biomechanics. You are just repeating the stupidity of the 'landing under your center of gravity' nonsense. You can't land under your center of gravity, that is impossible, it would mean zero ground contact time.

Think logically and stop repeating stupid stuff you read in glossy running magazines.

Love it! You hit the nail on the head... who gives a rat's rear on your pace anything short of a race. leave the garmin at home. Run by feel. Enjoy the run. No one really cares what training pace you run (so quit posting that stuff on facebook), truthfully no one but you really cares about your race pace either.

Americans' first thought on recovery run: "How fast am I going?"

Kenyans' (or someone who isn't a slave to the watch or Garmin) first thought: "How do I feel?"

Well said! Recovery is about the body and mind, not about something as arbitrary and out of touch as the pace maintained. Never mind that pace is largely determined by the chosen route, surface, weather and so many other variables; recovery runs are performed while in a fatigued state and fatigue isn't measured by the clock or a distance or set duration. It's measured by YOU: starting with your brain (assuming you've got one), your overall energy/chi/mojo, and of course your legs.

Enslaving yourself to a predetermined notion, like the necessity of sustaining a specific pace ("or my recovery is ruined, and therefore my fitness is") is at your peril. It shows a limited understanding of what recovery is and what it's supposed to be about. And if you cannot figure out when you're recovered or how to go about being recovered, you're doomed as a runner. Become a body whisperer and focus INWARD, not to the clock.

That's too profoundly intelligent for letsrun.

That's too profoundly intelligent for letsrun.

Oops, you're right. I forgot who, or what, we're dealing with here.

This engenders an interesting thought: how these Internet forums bring together ALL sorts, from the wisest and most experienced to the lowest (all-too) common denominator, from the positive to the most negative of ilks, from the willing to learn/capable of learning to the unwilling/incapable, and so forth. Nowhere else could this be accomplished; a running race would separate us all in short order, just as a classroom situation would.

y'all might be on to something here, i cannot say. i don't have the 20,000 foot view on runner's mentalities across the world.

back to my original post, however, i did run by feel. it was the most intuitive thing that came to mind for recovery day efforts.

what i'm pointing out is that "running by feel" isn't exactly locking it up for me... that, at times, when i run a bit uncomfortable, i end up feeling better at the end of the run, and recovering better the next day.

i can appreciate your viewpoint; maybe you are right! but i think the question i'm asking here is a bit more nuanced than the one you seem to be responding to... though i'm generally happy with the responses here, lots of good information.

What I know about body mechanics, I learned from my own body, running for 43 years and counting. What I said about landing over the center of gravity (a consequence of hip/torso alignment, not vice-versa) has been crucial to being able to still run 70-90 miles/week, feel better now than I did 10 years ago, and be almost as fast.

One indication that you're landing over your c.o.g. (or close to it) is that the ground impact feels lighter. Like you're patting the ground instead of pounding it, because you're not braking by overstriding. But as I say, this cannot be forced by itself. It starts in the hips,core,abs.

And you have to concentrate on it, at least I do, since decades of bad running habits never go away. Fortunately when I lapse my knees remind me to shape up.

bostonperson wrote:

What I know about body mechanics, I learned from my own body, running for 43 years and counting. What I said about landing over the center of gravity (a consequence of hip/torso alignment, not vice-versa) has been crucial to being able to still run 70-90 miles/week, feel better now than I did 10 years ago, and be almost as fast.

One indication that you're landing over your c.o.g. (or close to it) is that the ground impact feels lighter. Like you're patting the ground instead of pounding it, because you're not braking by overstriding. But as I say, this cannot be forced by itself. It starts in the hips,core,abs.

And you have to concentrate on it, at least I do, since decades of bad running habits never go away. Fortunately when I lapse my knees remind me to shape up.

Agreed. Younger folks get their panties all bunched up when you say land over your COG. True, nobody actually lands directly over the COG without falling, but the sensation is one of landing as close to directly over your COG as possible.

When I'm really in the zone the only tension I feel in my entire body is about an inch or so below my navel. Everything is just spinning around that point. It's like the planets spinning around the sun; the sun does not feel the planets. Yet if the sun tried spinning around any one planet there would be chaos and I dare say some planets might sustain an injury!

The difficult thing about conversation is that you can not tell somebody something they don't already know. You can try, but they will interpret what you say incorrectly as something they already know, but is different.

I think that's why the clever saying came about that says, "those who speak do not know; those who know do not speak."