Do I need mileage, or re-start from scratch with speedwork?

A bit depressed now. wrote:

oheo wrote:

Dynamics wise, vertical oscillation is a bit high but I doubt that's the biggest issue. Based on your diagnosis of your own stride it sounds like you need to work on sprinting speed and form, which in turn will help with form overall.

Here's a reallllly good progression from steve magness for going from steep hill sprints to flat strides. This will make you faster.

http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2009/05/sprint-training-part-2.html

Love to read Steve Magness stuff, thanks for sending. I definitely need to bookmark this thread now.

You are right vertical oscillation is high (and increases with speed, I'm in the 8-9mm at slow pace but 10-11 when running fast). My cadence and ground contact time are OK, but I am too bouncy and stride length too short. My belief is lack of hip extension.

Then the hill work will really be beneficial. Good luck. Post updates in a month or two.

dsrunner wrote:

most of what has been posted thus far is not very good. I think you know instinctively that 3h marathon is a bit daunting without something close to 5:10 1600m speed.

to run 5:10 1600m you need roughly 65 400m speed.

yes you have to get the lead out.

don't fixate on hill sprints, stride length, cadence or foot landing tips etc unless you want to be checking the stove top burner 35 times/day. most of that stuff is for squirrels. good running is a feeling of freedom, not an adventure in OCD land.

the truth is you've identified the limitation in your running and it isn't oxygen delivery.

speed and stamina are interconnected.

huh?

A bit depressed now. wrote:

no shitty coaches wrote:

You don't need mileage regardless of what the majority of runners think. The times you're running are most likely consistent with your genetics.

That's fine. I am not going to cry about genetics. I ask myself if I have the genes to run sub 3 in the marathon. If I do, I want to get there. If not, that sucks. And I don't know the answer.

FWIW I can break 6:00 at the end of a 8 mile progressive tempo run and have done. What I can't do is go much lower than that.

I agree that genetics is a limiting factor but you can overcome this with mileage up to a point. At 60 MPW, i could get to 3:10 but when ramping it up to 80+, i almost broke 3:00. Yes, i know that's a lot of miles to run that slow but it was totally worth it at the time.

also, i never broke 19 for 5k but i was able to run close to 3:00 in crap conditions. So i still stand by mileage.

oheo wrote:

dsrunner wrote:

most of what has been posted thus far is not very good. I think you know instinctively that 3h marathon is a bit daunting without something close to 5:10 1600m speed.

to run 5:10 1600m you need roughly 65 400m speed.

yes you have to get the lead out.

don't fixate on hill sprints, stride length, cadence or foot landing tips etc unless you want to be checking the stove top burner 35 times/day. most of that stuff is for squirrels. good running is a feeling of freedom, not an adventure in OCD land.

the truth is you've identified the limitation in your running and it isn't oxygen delivery.

speed and stamina are interconnected.

huh?

I think this poster has a fair point in terms of keeping it simple and not overanalyzing everything, however after sleeping on it (I'm the OP) I think I do need the following:

- introduction of short sprints, hills, anything to "get the lead out" and learn to run fast w/o straining

- more "speed endurance" work afterwards (increasing interval length to 200/400)

- run 400 all out and see where I am out, and later on lower mile PR

- keep a good mileage base (I somewhat disagree that the sole limitation is speed and not oxygen delivery, otherwise I'd have run 3:05-3:10 already!)

You know, if I remember correctly, I think I ran 13:xx at 100m when I was 14. And a sub 7" 50m I believe. At that same time, I would run a 3000m in 15 (8 min/mile). Clearly there has been some shifting from FT-->ST!

knockknock wrote:

also, i never broke 19 for 5k but i was able to run close to 3:00 in crap conditions. So i still stand by mileage.

Thanks --- this is encouraging. My first marathon was 3:50, second 3:40, third 3:17 on a not-so-easy course.

First two were 30 mpw, third 40-45 with two weeks at 50mpw.

I know I have a lot of room to increase volume. No doubt I could get close to 3:05 at 60+ mpw. I'm just wondering if that would be ENOUGH, and probably would not be. Need to get to the next level somehow, and a combination of everything (form, sprints, speed endurance, and mileage) is probably the best answer. Hope my genetics will allow sub 3!

Does Daniels in particular have a good balance program including everything that was mentioned in this thread?

Otherwise I'll pick my fartlek day (Tuesday) and do the following progression:

On Thu I can run high end aerobic to slightly sub threshold (6:20 for 3 miles, 3 x 15' at 6:30, 6:40 for 2 x 3 miles or the like).

On Sunday I like my steady "strength" run working to 12 miles at 7:00.

On other days seems like I need some strides, drills, faster stuff that is not too taxing.

I disagree with those who are saying to focus on speed. Especially the contention that most 3hr marathoners can run about a 5:10 1600. That may be true for younger runners, but for those of us in our 30's, I don't see it that often. I ran 2:57 last year at age 36 and I was running 5k's in the 18:35-18:45 range. Certainly not indicating any sort of 5:10 speed.

If your long term goal is a sub 3, you need to run more miles. You aren't a guy who can go out and run 2:59 on 40 miles a week no matter how fast or slow you run them. If I were you, I'd focus on bringing your average weekly mileage up to 60 over the next 2 years.

Over the last 3 years, I've upped my yearly mileage by about 40% (2600 up to 3700) and my stagnant times from the previous years all dropped. I turned my 5k pace into my 10k pace and broke a 6 year old marathon PR. I became consistent with my running and put in lots of miles.

I can only attest to what worked for me, but looking at where you are now sounds a lot like where I was 10 years ago.

Good luck!

Much depends upon your body type. How tall are you and what do you weigh currently? An increase in milage from say 45 MPW to 60 MPW often helps you get faster if you still have excess weight to lose. The taller and heavier you are then more challenging it will be for you. I went from 3:20 down to 2:53 in the marathon simply by getting lighter and maintaining my speed and strength. Then it got more difficult as I am 6´2 and weigh 164 pounds. To get faster now is a function of running form and technique. I will never weigh 145 as my frame would not allow it. Therefore my genetic limit is probably somewhere in the 2:45 to 2:49 range, something I never managed to achieve despite having run a 1:18:48 half marathon. Perhaps I am simply not suited for the longer distances due to my size. Consider your body type before you set goals for yourself. Perhaps you are (like me) better suited for middle distance races. My wife was a national level 800M runner and still thinks the marathon is crazy. Why are we so obsessed with this distance?

OP:

in general, i would say all runners should aim for all ranges of paces, from sprint to easy. it's all part of being a balanced athlete. even marathoners should touch mile work at times.

that said, everyone has different speeds, so while i'd suggest you work on sprints, that really should mean work on running fast and relaxed, whatever pace that may be for you.

it sounds like you've ignored the faster end of speeds, i've been guilty of that too, we all go to our strengths, which is fine. now you should get back to the harder and faster elements, in very small doses, and ease into it. it'll feel terrible at first, and regardless if it takes 1 month or one year, it will get easier - all part of neuromuscular coordination. which will help your marathon goals.

i'd say implement some speed and stick with what you like and have been doing (it has help you improve), no need to introduce Daniels plan (or any other plan) right away. Massive training changes like that lead to injuries.

i'd say what you outlined is good, but start with current plan plus the Tuesday progression, and then after say 4 weeks add strides/drills on only one day and see how you respond.

(Quote: "Otherwise I'll pick my fartlek day (Tuesday) and do the following progression:

http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2009/05/sprint-training-part-2.html

On Thu I can run high end aerobic to slightly sub threshold (6:20 for 3 miles, 3 x 15' at 6:30, 6:40 for 2 x 3 miles or the like).

On Sunday I like my steady "strength" run working to 12 miles at 7:00.

On other days seems like I need some strides, drills, faster stuff that is not too taxing.")

Thanks! Useful post. FWIW the max I've ever run in 1 year is 1,950 miles in 2013 (held a 1 year running streak, for fun). I've only crossed 50mpw 4 times in my life. Agree with you 5:10 sounds steep for 2:59, esp. for me.

Think I'd like to run sub 19 soon, low 38 10k thereafter and then train for another marathon peaking at 60 mpw, targeting sub 3:10, and after another year and more stable 60 mpw perhaps I'll have a shot.

Well you might scream but I ran 3:17 at 160lbs for 5'7. My 38:high 10k was around 156-157lbs, same for the 1:26 half which was on a hilly course.

I travel a bit for work and eat way too much pizza.

Losing weight has been a recent goal, I ran my first 200 miles month in August and lost 11 lbs (I was as high as 167lbs). Oddly enough, the least I weighed (143lbs) back in 2011 led to my worst marathon.

But yeah, I should probably target 140 lbs and being lean. At 5'7 (170cm), I am pretty stocky, and my quads/calf are absolutely huge.

You have too great a percentage of your mileage at a similar pace. You're really good at running 8-9 min. pace. Unsurprisingly, 6 min. pace feels unbelievably hard. You can progress for years just doing the same thing but eventually you plateau. I did the same training for a marathon. A lot of slower, steady mileage, but eventually progress stopped. Then I met a running friend who got me training with QUALITY. Trail runs, drills, some track. Raced 1500s. Kept the mileage about the same. For a lark w/3 long runs specific training, I went out and PRed by 13 minutes the next marathon I ran. So yes, you have to do more quality work, not necessarily more quantity. Too much slow running makes you good at only slow running.

@dykmtm thanks for the good post. Sounds like a very reasonable start indeed.

Many thanks to Letsrun, this is a very good thread I can keep, and hearing from various point of view and experiences is very, very eye opening.

I really want to outline a roadmap to sub 3, even in my head, and stop messing around with a goal-less training. It was fine when progress was fast, but now I need to get serious.

That makes sense too, but really I don't do a lot of easy mileage:

- M/W/F is a total of 10 miles @ 8-9 pace (more 9 than 8)

- T is a fartlek type

- Thu is a variable pace workout (usually 9:00, 8:30, 8:00, 7:30, 7:00, 6:40, 6:15 all)

- Sat is a trail with steep hills (well as steep as can be found in Central Park)

- Sun is the only steady-state run at a high end aerobic pace (8 @ 6:50, 10 @ 6:55, 12 @ 7:05 and up to 16 @ 7:25 during marathon training).

Personally I found that the 10 miles tempo near 7:00 flat are amazing for strength building and highly recommend them. Especially after a medium-hard day before (8 on trails).

Lots of advice, some complicated. Keep it simple. Keep your same mileage but substitute your Saturday run with 200m repeats. Start with 8-12 and build up to 16-20. Run at 1-2 mile pace. Jog 200M in between but don't worry too much about the rest interval. 2 min is fine. Do that weekly and your running economy will improve tremendously.

Bit depressed,

Apologies, but I too have had a chance to get some sleep, and reconsider your situation and my earlier advice. First, you might still be wise to incorporate some regular strides (say 1-2 x per week) and maybe also a 4-6 week phase that includes repetitions (a la Daniels)...

However, I apologize for not looking closer at your current times. And, considering your overall mileage & ultimate (only?) goal of a sub-3 marathon.

I think more miles will help you a lot. For several reasons.

1) 40, 50, miles is not much to maximize marathon performance.

2) Your endurance appears weak. Looking at the Daniels charts, a 19:00 5k equates to a 3:01:39 marathon. Your 3:17 is more equivalent to a 20:39 5k. And, a 6:03 mile. You may feel like you are weak on the speed-side, but your times suggest you are weakER on the endurance/stamina/aerobic side.

Here is an article that might be enlightening, and show you the importance of overall mileage. Make sure you actually do the math for the different levels for your 10k and see the difference.:

3) From my own experiences of running in the 40-60 mpw range, and eventually getting to the 70-90 range, I can 99.999% guarantee you that if you follow a well-rounded plan and increase your mileage, your 5k time will improve as well. At 40-60 with plenty of speedwork, I was struggling to break 17. Now, in the 70s & 80s, and focusing more on the half marathon than the 5k, I am disappointed if I'm slower than 16:00. I've cycled my mileage up & down enough to know that the mileage is the main difference, as long as you aren't completely neglecting some faster paces (again, well-rounded plan is important)

4) Weight - do not underestimate the importance of this. I spent years training hard, and running with 10-15 lbs more than I should have been. Extra pounds matter. Easily 1-2 seconds per pound per mile. At 1.5 seconds, every pound is about 39 seconds off your marathon. This article opened my eyes:

**Matt Fitzgerald cites some research in his book Racing Weight, that suggests running higher mileage somehow signals your body to seek a lower weight. Run more miles, and eat good foods sensibly (i.e. don't "diet" & deprive your body the fuel it needs to train well), and with time you'll be pleasantly surprised with the changes that happen in your body. There might be something to his theory - at lower mileages, I have not had any success trying to hit my goal racing weights via dieting & deprivation, but with higher mileages & eating good foods I did. Who knows, but worth a try.

Sorry for the change in advice, but I didn't want to stear you in the wrong direction. You seem to have a lot of opportunity on the endurance/aerobic side. As long as you have the willingness & time in your life to put in more training, I bet you can get your sub 3 this way.

@Dow Theory fwiw... who knows

No apologies needed at all, and really appreciate the update.

Weight: definitely need to work on that and be circa 140, lean.

Speed: think incorporating some strides or short hills is what I will do in short term, nothing crazy

Endurance: it's true my times don't line up at the marathon distance. Up to half is okay.

Reason I started the thread is because it was afraid that even if I were to double mileage my times would converge to 3:05 and fall short, you see?

I'll go with the balanced plan and report back.

From a base of 3-8-3-8-3-8-12 (45 mpw) where do I add the miles to get to 60+? I historically liked to keep the recovery days short (I also realize my weekend are heavier, because I can sleep, rest and don't have kids!)

Note i have no easy plain mileage day, anything > 6mi has some quality built in but mostly simple progression runs

A bit depressed (at first!). wrote:

@Dow Theory fwiw... who knows

Reason I started the thread is because it was afraid that even if I were to double mileage my times would converge to 3:05 and fall short, you see?

I'll go with the balanced plan and report back.

From a base of 3-8-3-8-3-8-12 (45 mpw) where do I add the miles to get to 60+? I historically liked to keep the recovery days short (I also realize my weekend are heavier, because I can sleep, rest and don't have kids!)

Note i have no easy plain mileage day, anything > 6mi has some quality built in but mostly simple progression runs

Yes, I understand your fear about converging at 3:05. That is possible, but I would suggest crossing that bridge if/when you get there (big "if"). I suspect that with increased miles, & reduced body weight, and another training cycle or two, your 5k will also benefit from the improved aerobic fitness (a 5k is also mostly aerobic) and your "convergence" point will be lower than 3:05.

As for where to add the miles.... you have several options. Can't say which is best for you, but I've seen all work. Doubles were critical for me to get in the higher mileages and feel good doing it.

1) If you follow some plans (Hansons, Pfitzinger, etc.) they will spell out each day. Daniels is a looser on the day-to-day details.

2) Keep the same proportions (if that's working well for you), while increasing overall mileage. I.e., if you bump 10% from 45 to ~50, your 3 milers would go to 3.3, your 8s to 8.8, 12 to 13.2.

3) Add some doubles. You can try adding an easy 20-30'ish minute shakeout run on some days. Experiment here. Some people like adding them on the mornings of their workout days, in order to keep their easy days really easy. I've seen others add them to their easy days.

One more thing on increasing mileage - you will have your own limit as to how much increase you can handle each cycle. It took me several years. A friend I run with was able to increase in about half the time it took me. It was frustrating for me b/c I wanted to get "there" faster, but in hindsight you can only take what your body has to give. As with everything else, listen to your body & don't force it.

A few reference points:

One Lydiard book I have lays out the week as follows:

M: 10%

T: 15%

W: 10%

Th: 18%

F: 10%

S: 15%

Su: 22%

Malmo's "perfect" 100mpw (with doubles most days) breaks down percentage-wise as:

Su: 15%

M: 5% 10%

T: 5% 10%

W: 5% 10%

Th: 5% 10%

F: 5% 5%

S: 10% 5%

Dude....I enjoy training discussions but this thread is full of way more complicated ideas than it needs.

You never run under 6 minute pace in training and are confused why you can't run it in a race?

5'45 pace is like 43" 200s and 86" 400s. Do some of those. Then, mix it in with the paces you already like:

1600 @ 6:15, 2x800 @ 3:00, 3x400 @ 85, 4x200 @ 40...keep the rest so you can finish the workout.

Don't be afraid to try something out of your comfort zone.