LRC Male Stars "Clean" or "Dirty" Doping Poll Results

and don't cite Lance - Lance was a different sport and before the passport

cuban bluegrass wrote:

and don't cite Lance - Lance was a different sport and before the passport

chris horner...

7soiusidud wrote:

Compared to all European ancestry "prodigies," Rupp's 4:01 to 13:37 range in highschool is unmatched, only Lindgren was close to it.

Lindgren was superior.

He ran 4:01.5 and 13:44.0 on a dirt track. Likely leading for much of the way.

Not to mention his 8:40.0 indoor 2 mile on an 11-lap to the mile board track where he damn near led the entire thing.

Rupp ran his high school mile & 5000m PB times in rabbited races on synthetic tracks.

Your position is that no positive tests means no drugs or illegal substances are being used by US runners and field athletes to improve performance? This is simply not a reasonable position to take. Relying on testing has never been a reliable yardstick to determine the number of athletes using PED's. There is no "post-steroid" era. The elite standard is the doped athlete. This is self-evident. Those of you that require video of athletes using are simply ignoring the obvious. In addition, there is no incentive for ANY governing body to aggressively pursue drug users.

Is it that easy for all these elites to get away with doping?? How often do they get tested? How long do the PEDs stay in their system? If it is seriously that easy to get away with doping, why haven't the tests improved more and or been distributed more often?

It's a universal truth in sports right now, that as long as you know when the tests are coming, you can beat them. If you train in the off-season, in a reclusive area, you are going to know hours, if not days in advance before a tester is coming... and that's if its completely unannounced... for example, if you are micro dosing EPO, all you need is a hand full of hours, and maybe a jug of water, and you'll beat the test every time....

Compared to doping in cycling this is child's play. In cycling they were able to pull off doping during competitions that lasted weeks, and had athletes tested throughout the competition... if all Mr. Trackstar needs to do is run one race a few seconds to a few minutes long, it would be significantly less complicated to time your usage...

RobertELee wrote:

I don't need to read the list, doping is the standard. It has been the standard for DECADES. Find a list of US sprinters that medaled and count the dopers. It's everywhere.

Ask yourselves this: if you are a high school senior and had to shave some time to get a scholarship to your dream school, or you were a D1 guy looking to win big and make The Olympics and you were sooo close, would you use drugs?

if the answer is no, you do not have the competitive fire to excel.

If the answer is yes then you have the mindset of an elite athlete.

These men and women WILL DO ANYTHING to achieve their goals.

There are a lot of elite athletes who will do anything legal or ethical (some just legal) to achieve their goals but won't dabble in drugs. I'd bet my life on Joe Gray being clean, for example.

RobertELee wrote:

cuban bluegrass wrote:

...and your explanation of no positive tests or suspensions or admissions by any national team type US men since...since...since....ever? I dunno. Been a long time.

And on the womens side you go back to 2003 with jacobs.

explain that.

Your position is that no positive tests means no drugs or illegal substances are being used by US runners and field athletes to improve performance? This is simply not a reasonable position to take. Relying on testing has never been a reliable yardstick to determine the number of athletes using PED's. There is no "post-steroid" era. The elite standard is the doped athlete. This is self-evident. Those of you that require video of athletes using are simply ignoring the obvious. In addition, there is no incentive for ANY governing body to aggressively pursue drug users.

ok let's try again.

Why have distance runners been caught in other countries, time and again, but not the US?

You're saying the Turkish and Russian governing bodies DO have incentive to catch the dopers but the American and Japanese DON'T?

Just not following your logic. Please help.

but Robert the key thing is this:

If all elites dope, like you seem to be claiming, someone, some poor, desperate drunk guy in flagstaff would have mixed the chemicals wrong and gotten busted out of competition.

Someone.

Someone would have messed up the microdosing. Someone would have left a needle in his backpack. Someone would talk.

You're saying dozens, maybe hundreds of active dopers and not one poz test, not one tell all.

For pretty much EVER.

Your position just isn't viable. Secrets aren't kept that well.

ok one more thing.

US sprinting has a doping culture. They get caught all the time.

if US distance running also has a doping culture....why aren't they getting caught all the time?

Why aren't they getting caught ever?

Try to answer that.

cuban bluegrass wrote:

but Robert the key thing is this:

If all elites dope, like you seem to be claiming, someone, some poor, desperate drunk guy in flagstaff would have mixed the chemicals wrong and gotten busted out of competition.

Someone.

Someone would have messed up the microdosing. Someone would have left a needle in his backpack. Someone would talk.

You're saying dozens, maybe hundreds of active dopers and not one poz test, not one tell all.

For pretty much EVER.

Your position just isn't viable. Secrets aren't kept that well.

I disagree. And who says there are secrets? Hundreds of people (literally) knew that Lance was doping. There are people that know what's going on, there are always people that know what is going on. The truth is that we, generally, see what we want to see, so that when Usain Bolt runs soooo very fast we don't see an obvious drug enhanced performance, we see the glory of a Great Olympian. The same is true for American runners. We want to believe that everything is Good and Clean and Pure. Besides, testing is very easy to beat. Truly, is an athlete has the will to excel, and if to excel means doping, the athlete will dope.

The pattern of PED use in sports is maddeningly consistent, so much that I am astounded that any fan who has paid even a routine amount of attention to sport thinks any elite athlete is clean.

In the end the users will be exposed. They always are. And if they aren't, they end up exposed by their success. And yes that's unfair. Too bad.

I had to Google Joe Gray. I would take that bet. Plenty of athletes take an aggressive anti-doping stance in interviews. I can't think of ANY athlete that was still competing that actually boasted about using PED's so frankly any athlete that yammers about the "naughty drug users" sounds fishy. And let's be clear, these guys aren't being tested with any great rigor. And again, he says himself that drugs are prevalent in his sport which means he is beating drug users, which I simply don't find to be credible.

you are a religious man, I can tell. You have faith despite evidence. Well, carry on. Clearly we have little more to discuss.

but robert - before we part, do answer me this:

why do the US sprinters get caught and not the distance runners?

You are the one acting on faith. I am basing my position on measurable patterns and statistics. Once the standard for excellence is marred by drug use any improvement on that standard is likely a result of drug use. Pretty simple actually. You want to have faith that these runners are not engaged in an activity which will greatly benefit them with little or no risk of punishment. That does not compute.

RobertELee wrote:

cuban bluegrass wrote:

you are a religious man, I can tell. You have faith despite evidence. Well, carry on. Clearly we have little more to discuss.

You are the one acting on faith. I am basing my position on measurable patterns and statistics. Once the standard for excellence is marred by drug use any improvement on that standard is likely a result of drug use. Pretty simple actually. You want to have faith that these runners are not engaged in an activity which will greatly benefit them with little or no risk of punishment. That does not compute.

well maybe we do have more to talk about.

first, answer why the US sprinters get caught and not the distance runners.

you say that any drug use anywhere in track mars all running everywhere.

Is that fair?

That's like saying well, Madoff, so all investors are crooks.

Or, Nixon was a liar, so all politicians are liars.

Or, my GM ignition failed and killed me, so all cars are rolling sarcophagi.

Your expanding from the particular to the general is faith based. You have absolutely no evidence to think US distance runners dope, but you know Tyson Gay and Shubokhova doped, so Jenny Simpson must be doping.

Your logical leap is enormous and faithbased rather than evidentiary.

cuban bluegrass wrote:

but robert - before we part, do answer me this:

why do the US sprinters get caught and not the distance runners?

I don't know the answer to that. Most PED's users aren't caught. Again, absence of a positive test is meaningless. Has Bolt been caught? No. Does he cheat? Of course he does. If he was asked in an interview about PED's no doubt he would condemn anyone that used them. Just like anyone.

The elite standard is the doped athlete.

RobertELee wrote:

Ask yourselves this: if you are a high school senior and had to shave some time to get a scholarship to your dream school, or you were a D1 guy looking to win big and make The Olympics and you were sooo close, would you use drugs?

if the answer is no, you do not have the competitive fire to excel.

If the answer is yes then you have the mindset of an elite athlete.

Total bs. I got 4th in the country the year before the Olympics and it never crossed my mind to dope. I ran first for intrinsic rewards.

Salazar long ago made it clear it's not just about the running.

I agree with that and have said as much with Alberto. I think he regrets the Wired magazine cover story, but the AlterGs, the underWater treadmills, many of his runners being on thyroid medication, Alberto gives the indication you can't be a Westerner and be the best with traditional training. With his own running, when I first was old enough to be aware of his training it was when he was doing Comrades and taking Prozac to be the best. SI also said he was "experimenting with the corticosteroid prednisone in an attempt to revive his deficient adrenal system."

(I have no idea about predisone back in the day and assume it was legal but now it's only banned in competition, but not out of competition:

I'm actually on prednisone as I type. I got poison ivy real bad and took it for 20 days. My dosage was up and 2 days later it started coming back. I went back in yesterday and they extended my prescription after the doctor warned me about not wanting to give me more of it)

Now I'm a guy who drove his car to the top of a mountain to sleep in it, did high low training, took ginseng in high school, etc, so you could say Alberto and I are doing the exact same thing, and he's got the resources to take it to another level.

Then just say you are doing everything possible to be the best. Make no apologies. Don't be secretive IMO. Have Galen Rupp discuss all the supplements he is on. Yet, that's not what happens.

It doesn't help Galen and Mo's perception that Alberto coached Mary Slaney when she tested positive. I personally believe Mary was a cheat and so do most of you. That belief goes back further to her Athletics West days. Alberto easily could have been coaching her and had no idea what she taking.

However, Albero has indicated that a) it's not just about running b) admitted to personally taking powerful (legal) drugs to try and enhance performance and c) coached an athlete who tested positive. With those things, I think it is perfectly reasonable for people to wonder what is going on and ask questions. That comes with the territory.

Legal or not, I personally don't want the sport to be about what secret pill someone is taking (and yes I know I took ginseng)

Then throw on top of it two of your athletes are doing things Western athletes have never done before and you're going to get more speculation. A perfectly valid explanation is that Galen and Mo train differently than any other athlete before them.

On a personal level, with the detractors on this thread and Alberto himself, I don't like being made out to be the bad guy but have accepted there will be criticism.

If Bolt, Farah, Rupp, Makhloufi Chris Derrick or whoever it is, doesn't like people thinking they are dirty, then speak up more for clean sport, release your WADA biological passport info, release the supplements you are on. Or just accept that is how sport is these days.

7% of LRCers think Chris Derrick is cheating, 20% of LRCers think Duane Solomon is cheating, 40%+ think Galen Rupp and Mo Farah are cheating and 85%+ think Makhloufi is cheating. That is the sports world we live in.

I find it interesting and think it shows our biases and passion that people only get really worked up when others think "their" athlete is dirty or might be dirty.

RobertELee wrote:

cuban bluegrass wrote:

but robert - before we part, do answer me this:

why do the US sprinters get caught and not the distance runners?

I don't know the answer to that. Most PED's users aren't caught. Again, absence of a positive test is meaningless. Has Bolt been caught? No. Does he cheat? Of course he does. If he was asked in an interview about PED's no doubt he would condemn anyone that used them. Just like anyone.

The elite standard is the doped athlete.

kudos for admitting you don't know the answer.